Now I'm depressed

[Hurdy]

Don't be sidetracked by the title

Takes half an hour to read.

If anybody can be bothered to read it ( I'm not being facetious! ) I would value their opinions.

[Sir T Fireball]

Long, but interesting read Hurdy old bean :) I'll ponder some more before getting back to you with my hypothesis :P

Hope everyone makes the time to read it too.

[prctr]

Hurdy,

I was mildly depressed before I read that, and I need to read it through several more times. But now I'm really depressed!

I KNEW there was a reason why I was feeling so powerless, and also have been convinced that Shrub & Company have been ushering in a new mode of operating. When something or someone can make the hair on the back of my neck stand up, I tend to pay attention. GWB and his ilk have been doing that since Day One.

It's unsettling to finally know that (a) It's Happening, and (B) there is nothing to be done about it. With the demise of optimism, I have my doubts that humans can really function under that dark cloud - it is against our nature to not have something to believe in, that things can be improved.

May I refer you to an observation made by Bertrand Russell, (can't tell you precisely where it comes from) in which he discusses an aspect of the colonialization of Africa. He states that the colonists and explorers brought many trinkets and gadgets with them, so as to impress the locals. But the natives were far more interested in the "intoxicating spirits" that the foreigners brought with them, because "it gave them the illusion, for the first time, that it is better to be alive than dead."

Perhaps the tribesmen had it right.

[Sir T Fireball]

Are you saying that Hurdy is driving you to drink with his doom and gloom posts :o

:D

[prctr]

I guess I was at that ! :lol: :lol: I need to take it all a bit less seriously; things could be worse - I could be a politician.......... :censored:

[Hurdy]

Well I might take to the drink again :D

[Sir T Fireball]

I'm stockpiling my booze in advance of the day that Tankus drinks Europe dry :D

[catgate]

Well, Hurdy, you have found a cracker here. He has certainly got the senario well thought out, although his conclusion is a little more radical that mine at http://www.angelfire.com/realm3/accord . He can not be faulted in his analysis of the cause of the problem, and it makes very little difference what label you hang on it. You can call it Facism or any other term but it still boils down to the control of the masses by the few. Democracy was defines as 'the government of the people, by the people, for the people' but what we have today, not just in America but in every country on earth, is 'subjugation of the people, by a small group of wealth/power seekers, for their own ends'. But this is not new! It has been going on for centuries. Look how the church in all its many forms (Jewish, Christian, Moslem, Bhuddist) have kept "the people" under control, initially for the benefit of its own power seekers and then for the benefit of temporal power seekers in exchange for "favours" (e.g land, titles, money, compulsion to worship etc.) The Big difference is now that the main religion in the western world is the worship of money and its providers, and the new "church leaders" are the politicians, who will do anything for land, titles, money, compulsion to worship . The state of affairs in the Moslem world seems to be at the same stage of development/fervour/torment as was Christianity after a similar number of years had passed after the death of it's "founder".

The only alternative to the end portrayed in the "Facism" site is the change of the nature of government to a non political, non party government of a true democratic nature, in which every person affected by any rule/law/ordinance has a say in the formation and acceptance/rejection of it.

[moon]

That would be eDemocracy. Coming soon to a town near you.

[Tankus]

Interesting at the start ...flakey to the end ....

I like the idea of defining a fascist state

(The key is the merging of state and business leadership)

1.      Powerful and continuing expressions of nationalism

2.      Disdain for the importance of human rights

3.      Identification of enemies / scapegoats as a unifying cause

4.      The supremacy of the military / avid militarism

5.      Rampant sexism

6.      A controlled mass media

7.      Obsession with national security

8.      Religion and ruling élite tied together

9.      Power of corporations protected

10.    Power of labour suppressed or eliminated

11.    Disdain and suppression of intellectuals and the arts

12.    Obsession with crime and punishment

13.    Rampant cronyism and corruption

14.    Fraudulent elections

by this , It would seem that perhaps the Italians are verging on fascism again , under Belesconi ......

And perhaps the UK had one of the most successful and longest fascist regimes during Queen Victoria's reign , but its not perhaps considered as one .....

What the US is doing now , is no different that what we did 150 years ago .

Seems to hit all the buttons though

The fossil fuel (as opposed to industrial)age will eventually decline , but it will be a long drawn out thing rather than a sudden break .......

Engine efficiency and hybrids will stretch the remaining resources , an as the price of a barrel goes up , more and more technologically (read expensive extraction) challenging reserves will come on stream .... Look at the vast increase in exploration and exploitation after the 70's oil shortages (everyone then thought it was the end of civilisation as we then knew it)More and more alternative energy sources will also become more prevalent ...we are bound to get fusion power right eventually.

Our environment will take a hammering , but it will slowly improve as the lawyers get fatter..

The "industrial " age will not suddenly stop either , as the far east plays catchup.

Look at the UK over the last few decades our country has transformed itself from an industrial wealth based nation to a service one ....Yet our economy is considered successful ....

This process is not as far advanced in the US and Japan , but it is happening there too , as the heavy industry is in decline due to employment and employment law costs ..

Perhaps if were bright enough as the heavy industry's expand in the far east , they can bring on board modern technology with regards to pollution ...

The last bit on a massive reduction in population I think is also flawed ....It will plateau out eventually , but I doubt it will significantly decline as the ability to supply opposed to demand will reach a natural balance.

There will be a lot of wars and famines along the way , but they will be blips

I'm not to overly depressed over the future , but I don't think following generations will have as an easy as our current ones , plus the legacy of our attempts of nu lear (weapon development) power , but will it be catastrophic .....?....nah

[djohn]

I read through it twice also followed through to a couple of the links but found it very hard going and difficult to take in. From what I did understand of the article though I would tend to agree with Tankus. :unsure:

[Tankus]

I doubt there will be a booze shortage either , despite my alleged attempts , Governments make too much money out of tax..

[Sir T Fireball]

I think we should nuke the yanks off the face of the planet, just to be safe :shifty:

[Hurdy]

Interesting at the start ...flakey to the end ....

I like the idea of defining a fascist state

(The key is the merging of state and business leadership)

1.      Powerful and continuing expressions of nationalism

2.      Disdain for the importance of human rights

3.      Identification of enemies / scapegoats as a unifying cause

4.      The supremacy of the military / avid militarism

5.      Rampant sexism

6.      A controlled mass media

7.      Obsession with national security

8.      Religion and ruling élite tied together

9.      Power of corporations protected

10.    Power of labour suppressed or eliminated

11.    Disdain and suppression of intellectuals and the arts

12.    Obsession with crime and punishment

13.    Rampant cronyism and corruption

14.    Fraudulent elections

by this , It would seem that perhaps the Italians are verging on fascism again , under Belesconi ......

The definition of fascism was the first thing that struck me, however I thought the above points were more relevant to America - especially when you read some of the posts by the more right-wing members of the Pit.

I'm glad you have more hope for the future as regards alternative power sources - i.e. fusion power (way over my head).

Would fusion power be capable of powering things like machinery, vehicles, generators all the things we need to produce and distribute essentials such as food and supplies?

[Tankus]

The most usual type of power plants (thermal) are just over-sized kettles that use pressurised steam to turn a turbine connected to a dynamo , and are pretty much the same .

The biggest difference is in the heat source ,and the level of built in constructional safety that they require.

Burning coal requires large scale infrastructure and logistics (mines , transport of large tonnages) plus pollution from the combustion products (notably sulphur ) This can be reduced by burning a higher grade coal (99.9%plus carbon anthracites) but they cost more to extract out of the ground ( its needs higher pressures and temps to form , and usually comes in smaller seams ...more spoil , more cost )

Oil ...cost and pollution (sulphur again)

Gas ...cut the steam stage out , direct burn in turbines . Smaller, quick to build ,fast to start, just about most of the newer UK plants have been gas turbine , but its supply is finite and running cost is increasing (North Sea)

Nuclear ....(fission) splitting atoms give heat , the process also gives off radiation

only unstable elements readily split but the stuff is rare and dangerous .

Its been described as using a flame thrower from an armoured tank to boil a kettle to make a cup of tea

Fusion .....1) joining atoms gives of heat

...............2) joining atoms gives off an electrical charge (cold fusion ?)

At the moment its only been achieved for split fractions of a second and it requires far more energy going into the process than is released. But it does not have the resulting high amounts of associated radiation

Ill bet well get there in the end if there is enough fiscal incentive .

There is far more Coal around than oil it will not be the end of the world as the oil drys up , our economies will slowly convert.

I read some good stuff about some "techno hippies" in California about their idea's to decentralise power supply and bring it down to a more human/social community level...

Lower power consumption buildings ..( no air-con needed)

All organic waste from the community composted and the gasses bled off to be burnt in a totem (an insulated piston engine that drives a dynamo and the heat is drawn off for hot water)

All houses have roof made up of photo voltaic cells

Some wind turbines

(small scale hydro power if the land permits)

Grew a lot of their own food , supplied their own water

Cut themselves from the utilities

Also questioned their payment of taxes to the government for utility supply

Obviously it would not work in cities ...but interesting , I guess that was where the geezer was heading toward the end of the article (Hurdys) but in order to get it to work It would require lower population densities (get rid of the cities)

I think he was banking on some large scale event which would result in a huge human cull .....(global war looked like his best , quick , option )

My bet is ..the Antarctic is going to get raped , and Russia's flag will rise again..

[Hurdy]

Thank you for that info.

Ill bet well get there in the end if there is enough fiscal incentive

Oil companies should start hedging their bets.

My first thought on a rapid reduction of the world's population funnily enough was not down to war but starvation.

We in the West are primarily city dwellers and do not have the wherewithal to produce our own food. There's the old joke about asking the little kid where eggs come from and he replies 'Tescos'. We would all be clueless.

The ones that would cope best would be the world's humble peasants.

Maybe the meek really shall inherit the Earth.

[Tankus]

Starvation in the poorer countries perhaps ....

You thinking of climate change destroying the worlds bread baskets...?.... US /Canada dust bowls ?

[Hurdy]

I was thinking more of a fuel problem.

All of our food is grown, produced, distributed using fuel.

Our economy and whole way of life is based on oil - take that away and I wonder how our society will function.

[Sir T Fireball]

Maybe the meek really shall inherit the Earth.

and the cockroaches :D So them that cause the end of the world as we know it will be the only survivors :( Bloody yanks :rolleyes:

[TracyLynn]

::tip toes in::: uh which yanks? :surrender:

[Sir T Fireball]

I thought you were a southern belle :blush:

:D

[TracyLynn]

yes indeedy I am.. but sometimes we still seem to get called yanks over here in the US :P