This is disgusting

[andsome]

Sabrina Harman has been found guilty of abusing Iraqi prisoners and sentenced to six months jail. In my opinion this sentence is absolutely disgusting. It would be unfair on animals to call her an animal. She is not fit to be called a human being. The maximum allowable of five years would have been insufficient.

See here

[deuces wild]

We already hashed this through. She was tried and convicted. Things like that are not excusable but happen in all wars and no one was killed.

BTW, remind me again where I can find your post stating your disgust of the Americans and other Country members being executed on camera, having their heads cut off by these animals.

And did you call *them* animals andsome?

Edit: Remind me again of your post stating your digust when Newsweek magazine posted a deliberate lie about US soldiers flushing the Koran down the toilet at Guantánamo Bay naval base in Cuba. 17 people died as a direct result of this lie.

Did you call the author of this lie and editor who allowed it to be published animals?

Or are US soldiers always the animals in your eyes? :angry:

[andsome]

Most American soldiers are without doubt well disciplined and extremely courageous. I am not disputing that in any way. What I am disputing is this ridiculous sentence for what is without doubt a serious crime. No one is more anti than me when it comes to some of the crimes commited in the name of Islam. The US and her allies however claim to be civilised. By no stretch of the imagination can the behaviour of this person and her comrades be called civilised.

[deuces wild]

The soldier had her day in court. Although you disagree with the sentence, the court found it appropriate.

You are certainly not consistent in your outrage and definition of *animals* andsome.

Could it be that you have *selective* outrage because you are against the war? :rolleyes:

[trackrat]

We already hashed this through.  She was tried and convicted.  Things like that are not excusable but happen in all wars and no one was killed.

BTW, remind me again where I can find your post stating your disgust of the Americans and other Country members  being executed on camera, having their heads cut off by these animals.

And did you call *them* animals andsome?

Edit:  Remind me again of your post stating your digust when Newsweek magazine posted a deliberate lie about US soldiers flushing the Koran down the toilet at Guantánamo Bay naval base in Cuba.  17 people died as a direct result of this lie.

Did you call the author of this lie and editor who allowed it to be published animals?

Or are US soldiers always the animals in your eyes? :angry:

I entirely disagree with you Andsome, I do not think she should have been jailed at all.

She was following orders from higher up and those are the ones who need to be brought to justice.

[deuces wild]

We already hashed this through.  She was tried and convicted.  Things like that are not excusable but happen in all wars and no one was killed.

BTW, remind me again where I can find your post stating your disgust of the Americans and other Country members  being executed on camera, having their heads cut off by these animals.

And did you call *them* animals andsome?

Edit:  Remind me again of your post stating your digust when Newsweek magazine posted a deliberate lie about US soldiers flushing the Koran down the toilet at Guantánamo Bay naval base in Cuba.  17 people died as a direct result of this lie.

Did you call the author of this lie and editor who allowed it to be published animals?

Or are US soldiers always the animals in your eyes? :angry:

I entirely disagree with you Andsome, I do not think she should have been jailed at all.

She was following orders from higher up and those are the ones who need to be brought to justice.

That depends on your definition of "high ranking". I understand the independant investigation to have shown that these folks were mostly acting on their own with some support of their actions by lower level officers. Does that condone the actions? Nope. Does that mean that the senior officials were not at fault for not knowing about it? Nope. They are ultimately responsible.

http://news.findlaw.com/hdocs/docs/iraq/tagubarpt.html

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/artic...-2005Apr22.html

Key questions on this whole prisoner abuse scandal:

Were the abuses wrong? Yes.

Were the abuses investigated? Yes.

Where *Senior* officials found responsible? No.

Were those responsible held accountable for their actions in a Court of Law? Yes.

Although not tolerable, were abuses such as those at Abu Ghraib (or worst) committed in previous wars? Yes.

Did those innocent victoms/prisoners captured and beheaded by the radical Islamics get any of those privileges? No. PROOF.

Warning...explicit pictures.

All facts.

Now take into account the recent lies by Newsweek Magazine......an attempt to try to *SHAPE* the news rather than *REPORT* it.

Draw your own conclusions based on your own biases.

Mine is that the extremists against the war will always place the United States (and the UK) as the villian.

Do not get me wrong....this is not to say that the US is without fault. But to continue to harp on Abu Ghraib (even after an admission of guilt was made and trials held) while failing to mention the tortures, rapes and murders by the radical islamics and while failing to mention the obvious lies and bias (can you spell Dan Rather?) by the liberal media is nothing short of outrageous.

Stepping off my soap box now. :P

[ike]

I think six months in jail was enought time for putting

her painties (bloomers) on somebody's head...

at least he's still got his head..

[andsome]

The war as such was clearly illegal. Having said that, I am more than glad that Saddam was dealt with. The United Nations always has been a toothless wonder, and has failed dismally time after time, and is still doing so in Sudan. The United Nations should have authorised an attack on Saddam. All this aside, my question concerned the sentence on one person. Justice in a civilised society should not be based on revenge. I would look to Western countries to show these Islamic fundamentalist thugs that we are not like them, that western justice is just that, JUSTICE. Justice should never bring in the revenge motive, otherwise we would be back to mob rule. What that woman did was inexcusable, and should be punished appropriately. Those immediately above her should also be brought to justice.

[rong]

A first I agree.

[Sir T Fireball]

She got long enough in my opinion. Save the big stick for the big guns abover her.

As for some here comparing the reaction to her alledgedly lenient sentence with the lack of reaction to the disgusting treatment of coalition prisoners......Murdering some 100,000 Iraqis isn't severe enough retribution? Not to mention the 1 million or so that died because of the sanctions during the 90's. If you were to blockade my country and I had to watch my friends and family die in those kind of numbers and under such circumstances, you wouldn't be able to hide anywhere on the planet from my justice. A beheading on videotape would seem very tame in comparison. In fact I would go as far as to say that being beheaded is far more humane than the ways in which many Iraqis were killed by the West during the great sanctions of the 90's.

[ike]

sanctions of the 90's.

You think any of the people would have got any

Aid sent, if there was no sanctions..

Hell No

The U.S.A. sent Aid and money to North Korea for

years..and the people still starved to death, while

the Goverment used the aid to persue their

nuclear weapons program..

[deuces wild]

Murdering some 100,000 Iraqis isn't severe enough retribution? Not to mention the 1 million or so that died because of the sanctions during the 90's.

Proof? Specifically that the US murderered 100,000 Iraqi's and then were directly responsible for 1 million ("or so" according to you*) to die.

Then remind me again how any of that has to do with the trial and conviction of a US soldier who abused Iraqi prisoners of war.

On a lighter note, I hope your family is doing well SirT and glad to see you here. :)

[Sir T Fireball]

Then remind me again how any of that has to do with the trial and conviction of a US soldier who abused Iraqi prisoners of war.

About as much as this does.....

BTW, remind me again where I can find your post stating your disgust of the Americans and other Country members being executed on camera, having their heads cut off by these animals.

And did you call *them* animals andsome?

Edit: Remind me again of your post stating your digust when Newsweek magazine posted a deliberate lie about US soldiers flushing the Koran down the toilet at Guantánamo Bay naval base in Cuba. 17 people died as a direct result of this lie.

Did you call the author of this lie and editor who allowed it to be published animals?

Or are US soldiers always the animals in your eyes?

*******************

Proof? Specifically that the US murderered 100,000 Iraqi's and then were directly responsible for 1 million ("or so" according to you*) to die.

I'm not targetting the USA alone when I mention these deaths. In the region of 100,000 have died as a result of this 'illegal' war. Death as a result of an illegal action is murder - no matter who it is that does the killing.

The 1 million figure is officially recognised by the international community. Again, I do not solely attribute those murders to the USA. The UK and UN had a large part to play too. However, if a group of three people murder someone and all get convicted of the crime, are you suggesting they all should only get a third of the punishment? No! They are all as guilty as if they acted alone. MY COUNTRY, YOUR COUNTRY AND MANY OTHER COUNTRIES SHARE THE BLAME!

If you want proof of the 1 million deaths, send an email to Mrs Albright. When asked on US television if she thought that the death of half a million Iraqi children from sanctions in Iraq was a price worth paying, she replied: "This is a very hard choice, but we think the price is worth it."

Take a look here: http://www.globalissues.org/Geopolitics/Mi...q/Sanctions.asp

As stated, I do not blame the USA alone. I also blame my own government for being such a weak livered horde and letting their love of the $$$ allow them to be led by the nose. I blame my country's leader for being so in awe of the most powerful man in the world that he'd probably undergo a total gender change operation if it meant he got the chance to be seen standing alongside Uncle Bush on our TV screens once again. You see, I don't buy into the oft touted excuse of 'peer pressure'. B'liar is big enough and ugly enough to be expected to know right from wrong. Sadly for us (and at least a million Iraqi souls) he doesn't. He and Bush are a disgrace as politicians and as human beings. They rank lower than those animals that cut the heads off of captured invaders and their auxillary workers. The animals are honest monsters. They say up front that if they catch the invaders, they will kill them according to their laws and customs. They have caught and killed some as promised. Our leaders do not have a shred of honesty in their bones. They have lied and spun their way through this whole sorry saga. Why? Because they would not dare admit the real reasons behind their killing spree, and oh boy, what a spree it has been.... The coalitions 'kill ratio' is near 10,000-1. Figuratively speaking, that's 3 x 9/11 for every 1 of the captured invaders that have been executed. Does that not hit a nerve? I know this is all occurring on the other side of the world, but we have been responsible for something akin to 35 times the deaths of 9/11 since the illegal war was first waged and that is in Iraq alone...not to mention Afghanistan.

Maybe we value life differently? I hold the life of Arabs in as much regard as those of Englishmen or Americans. I was horrified by the deaths on 9/11, and I am 35 times as horrified by the deaths bought about since.

I believe it's time for the charade to be bought to an end. Afghanistan was about revenge and appeasing the American populaces need for a few heads on platters. I didn't like it, but understood it. Iraq however, is about oil, replacement bases for those about to be lost in Saudi and protecting Israel. All hidden behind the BIG lie that is 'the spreading of freedom & democracy'.

These are my opinions, take them or leave them. We argued pre-war about the legitimacy of the WMD claims...I was proven right. Now the reason for the war has been changed so many times, I doubt even you 'good ol boys' know what the current one is. We used to laughingly talk about Kerry and his flip-flopping. Well, now I truly know what the term means. How come so many intelligent people can't see all this for what it really is? Or is it that they don't want to believe it? It sure is a bitter pill to be asked to swallow, but the nastier tasting medicine is usually the better cure. ;)

Sorry if this is all a bit disjointed, but it wasn't so much from the head as from the heart.

[Hurdy]

Hear! hear!

[deuces wild]

Thanks SirT. Although I do not agree with your post or the link you provided as proof I respect your view on this.

"Hear hear" (sic). :P :D

[Sir T Fireball]

Forget about the figure of 1 million for a moment. Even if it was 500,000 or 250,000, it should still be enough to make any half-decent human wish for a halt to be called. Maybe these links from fairly respectable organisations will help...

UNICEF

OXFAM

[deuces wild]

Forget about the figure of 1 million for a moment. Even if it was 500,000 or 250,000, it should still be enough to make any half-decent human wish for a halt to be called. Maybe these links from fairly respectable organisations will help...

UNICEF

OXFAM

So you are saying that your original claim of 1 million+ is actually closer to 250,000?

(edit:How many of those were killed by terrorists?)

Fair enough.

So how many were murdered, torutured and raped by Sadam?

[andsome]

Saddam needed getting rid of, but the fact remains that it was done illegally. The coalition did not go to war on behalf of all the people murdered by Saddam, as said by Sir T, it was for oil, to help satisfy American thirst for it. It is a fact that with about 4% of the worlds population, America uses up about 25% of the worlds resources, and does not give a damn about the long term effects of global warming. I have no love of Gorgeous George Galloway, but boy oh boy did he give the senate something to think about. I only hope that they investigate their own politicians.

[Sir T Fireball]

Forget about the figure of 1 million for a moment. Even if it was 500,000 or 250,000, it should still be enough to make any half-decent human wish for a halt to be called. Maybe these links from fairly respectable organisations will help...

UNICEF

OXFAM

So you are saying that your original claim of 1 million+ is actually closer to 250,000?

Fair enough.

So how many were murdered, torutured and raped by Sadam?

Are you seriously saying that because Saddam killed X number of Iraqis that it is ok for us to do it too?

Are you suggesting that a mere 250,000 is an acceptable number?

How many were raped, tortured, killed by Saddam? I've no idea. We are still waiting to find these alledged mass graves that contain thousands of bodies....The facts are though that the Western coalition have killed tens of thousands of Iraqis.

[deuces wild]

Are you suggesting that a mere 250,000 is an acceptable number?

Nope. And I wonder how many of those dead were actually killed by the terrorists? How many were terrorists and not Iraqi's?

But war is a nasty thing and people die fighting for our freedoms and the freedom of others.

This war is also unique. The enemy is not in uniform and fights out of Mosques, both contrary to the Geneva Convention.

The facts are though that the Western coalition have killed tens of thousands of Iraqis.

So now the million number you originally claimed, a number you later reduced to 250,000 is now further reduced to tens of thousands? :blink:

Which is it?

[rong]

The point one is to many.

[deuces wild]

To you and some others perhaps. Not to the Iraqi's who now have freedom.

[rong]

So in your opinion how many inocent people would be to high a number.

[deuces wild]

Zero. But certainly not realistic in the time of war. We are not talking about a game of soccer here.

Edit: And I believe the Iraqis would say as many as it takes. Did you see them come out to vote knowing they could have been killed? Did you see pictures of them with purple fingers knowing that they could be killed for having voted?

So how many innocent people killed and raped by Saddam is acceptable to you?

[rong]

So how many innocent people killed and raped by Saddam is acceptable to you?

Well if my previous posts haven't answered that for you, nil

Tell me how many people has Sadam killed and raped?