Brainwashing or freedom of choice?

[gordythegouge]

To continue the saga started between Thos and myself a couple of days ago:

Me:I bemoaned the Political levy that was extracted from my Union dues and payed to the Labour Party with no chance to change this to another Partry of my choosing.

Thos: Quite rightly pointed out that not all Unions wer affiliated to the Labour party.

Me:I then in fact pointed that because of my location, (Scotland), that the Central Belt stronghold of the Labour Party. does in fact wield enormous power throughout the major unions eg GMB. I bemoaned the fact that there was no real debate going on. It was a case of "If it was good enough for my old man.....it's good enough for me!"

Thos: Quite rightly pointed out that that was their prorogative, their choice.

Me:I suggested that the personal choice issue becomes watered down when basically, you've been brainwashed from knee high to fit a certain model, to have and use a certain mindset, automatic responses to certain questions or situations. It takes an intelligent individual to break out of the mould set by his predesessors. It does happen off course.....but not often enough for my liking! It takes education, and not the formalised type that we get in schools, although that obviously helps, because it has become apparent to me that too many are turned off, too early, with that type of training/discussion! How do we educate people to believe that they do have freedom of choice, if they choose to use it, that their choice will make a difference and that it is in fact, OK to disagree with their predesessors! How in fact, do we even interest them enough to become involved in active decision making?

I open the debate.......I've said too much already! :lol:

[Robbers Dog]

As I did not see the thread you are refering too, I don't know if this was covered or not, but every member of a Trade Union as a right to opt out of paying the political levy. This was brought in by the Tories and as far as I know is still in force.

[catgate]

How do we educate people to believe that they do have freedom of choice, if they choose to use it, that their choice will make a difference and that it is in fact, OK to disagree with their predecessors! How in fact, do we even interest them enough to become involved in active decision making?

Freedom of choice, like "democracy", "equality" etc, is an intellectual concept that is impossible until man has developed into a humane being and left behind his animal legacy, and since the direction of man's "progress" seems to have reversed, that might be a long time coming.

Any choice that a man makes is based on his own passed experience. It can not be otherwise, he can not experience other peoples experience. He has only his own concept of normality, and, being brought up in this normality, this must be right. Therefore every reaction is preprogrammed, whether it be by formal education, street education or just living. Everything is reaction..not action. Under these circumstances "Freedom of Choice", like Prezzer, a fatuous concept.

http://www.angelfire.com/realm3/accord/normal.htm

[gordythegouge]

As I did not see the thread you are refering too, I don't know if this was covered or not, but every member of a Trade Union as a right to opt out of paying the political levy. This was brought in by the Tories and as far as I know is still in force.

I think you're correct, but what won't happen, is for that political levvy to be donated to another Party of your choice!

How do we educate people to believe that they do have freedom of choice, if they choose to use it, that their choice will make a difference and that it is in fact, OK to disagree with their predecessors! How in fact, do we even interest them enough to become involved in active decision making?

Freedom of choice, like "democracy", "equality" etc, is an intellectual concept that is impossible until man has developed into a humane being and left behind his animal legacy, and since the direction of man's "progress" seems to have reversed, that might be a long time coming.

Any choice that a man makes is based on his own passed experience. It can not be otherwise, he can not experience other peoples experience. He has only his own concept of normality, and, being brought up in this normality, this must be right. Therefore every reaction is preprogrammed, whether it be by formal education, street education or just living. Everything is reaction..not action. Under these circumstances "Freedom of Choice", like Prezzer, a fatuous concept.

http://www.angelfire.com/realm3/accord/normal.htm

Very interesting link! :)

[Thos]

As I did not see the thread you are refering too, I don't know if this was covered or not, but every member of a Trade Union as a right to opt out of paying the political levy. This was brought in by the Tories and as far as I know is still in force.

Yes. I think this was originally the basic point and not all TU's affiliate anyway.

Things are a lot different nowadays. Unions have had their powers severely curtailed and there seems little stomach for mass confrontation with employers.

The Labour Party was, of course, a child of the Union movement and it was natural then that members should have been asked to fund this political wing. I wonder if anyone remembers, or even cares, that the celebrations of the Tolpuddle Martyrs are, I believe, this coming weekend?

Thos.

[Robbers Dog]

I think you're correct, but what won't happen, is for that political levvy to be donated to another Party of your choice!

Does it really matter? If you don't want to pay it, the answer is in your own hands.

The money you save by opting out, donate to a political party of your own choice. :)

[Thos]

How do we educate people to believe that they do have freedom of choice, if they choose to use it, that their choice will make a difference and that it is in fact, OK to disagree with their predecessors! How in fact, do we even interest them enough to become involved in active decision making?

Freedom of choice, like "democracy", "equality" etc, is an intellectual concept that is impossible until man has developed into a humane being and left behind his animal legacy, and since the direction of man's "progress" seems to have reversed, that might be a long time coming.

Any choice that a man makes is based on his own passed experience. It can not be otherwise, he can not experience other peoples experience. He has only his own concept of normality, and, being brought up in this normality, this must be right. Therefore every reaction is preprogrammed, whether it be by formal education, street education or just living. Everything is reaction..not action. Under these circumstances "Freedom of Choice", like Prezzer, a fatuous concept.

http://www.angelfire.com/realm3/accord/normal.htm

The difficulty I have with dealing with these intellectual concepts is that we don't live in a world of conceptions. We have to make the best of things as they are with all of our and others imperfections.

Our versions of "democracy" and "equality" might not be ideal, but at the moment they serve to give government which you can criticise and oppose if you wish. Concepts are not practical alternatives.

Thos.

[catgate]

How do we educate people to believe that they do have freedom of choice, if they choose to use it, that their choice will make a difference and that it is in fact, OK to disagree with their predecessors! How in fact, do we even interest them enough to become involved in active decision making?

Freedom of choice, like "democracy", "equality" etc, is an intellectual concept that is impossible until man has developed into a humane being and left behind his animal legacy, and since the direction of man's "progress" seems to have reversed, that might be a long time coming.

Any choice that a man makes is based on his own passed experience. It can not be otherwise, he can not experience other peoples experience. He has only his own concept of normality, and, being brought up in this normality, this must be right. Therefore every reaction is preprogrammed, whether it be by formal education, street education or just living. Everything is reaction..not action. Under these circumstances "Freedom of Choice", like Prezzer, a fatuous concept.

http://www.angelfire.com/realm3/accord/normal.htm

The difficulty I have with dealing with these intellectual concepts is that we don't live in a world of conceptions. We have to make the best of things as they are with all of our and others imperfections.

Our versions of "democracy" and "equality" might not be ideal, but at the moment they serve to give government which you can criticise and oppose if you wish. Concepts are not practical alternatives.

Thos.

I think you have just proved my point.

[Thos]

I think you have just proved my point.

Did I?

Oh, good.

Thos.

[gordythegouge]

I think you have just proved my point.

Did I?

Oh, good.

Thos.

Let me just dash a bucket of water over the two of you.........if you have no concept (understanding) then how can you do anything (Practical) to achieve what you want ie change the status quo? They're indivisible! :)

[catgate]

I think you have just proved my point.

Did I?

Oh, good.

Thos.

Let me just dash a bucket of water over the two of you.........if you have no concept (understanding) then how can you do anything (Practical) to achieve what you want ie change the status quo? They're indivisible! :)

As far as my grasp on semantics go, so have you.

[andsome]

I for one am proud of the fact that I have over the years made my own choices. I was brought up to believe that the Labour party was the bees knees, and accordingly voted for them as soon as I was old enough. In my teens I was a member of a trade union and became a member of the Junior Workers Committee of the A.E.U. I pretty soon realised that labour was NOT all it was cracked up to be, and joined the Liberal party. I helped out at an election, and attended the count on the party's behalf. After a year or two of that I decided to join the Tory party, and again helped out as much as I possibly could, and attended several counts at elections. I was asked to stand for election as a Tory councillor, but was by then becoming disaffected by all political party's, and declined. Now, I would not belong to any party. Since leaving the Tory party, I have usually voted for them because I firmly believe that the alternative is horrendous, except that at the European elections I voted UKIP as a protest at the bureaucracy that has taken over our daily lives. As long as our present MP stands I will vote for him on his record to date. I have certainly left my upbringing behind and exercised my own choices. So you see, we are NOT all sheep.

[catgate]

I have certainly left my upbringing behind and exercised my own choices. So you see, we are NOT all sheep.

Any choice that a man makes is based on his own passed experience. It can not be otherwise, he can not experience other peoples experience. He has only his own concept of normality, and, being brought up in this normality, this must be right. Therefore every reaction is preprogrammed, whether it be by formal education, street education or just living. Everything is reaction..not action.

Our choice is determined by our past experiences, and since we can only have the benefit if this one particular set of experiences our choice can not be free. It is controlled by our past programming.

[andsome]

I have certainly left my upbringing behind and exercised my own choices. So you see, we are NOT all sheep.

Any choice that a man makes is based on his own passed experience. It can not be otherwise, he can not experience other peoples experience. He has only his own concept of normality, and, being brought up in this normality, this must be right. Therefore every reaction is preprogrammed, whether it be by formal education, street education or just living. Everything is reaction..not action.

Our choice is determined by our past experiences, and since we can only have the benefit if this one particular set of experiences our choice can not be free. It is controlled by our past programming.

SORRY, can't swallow that business of programming. For a start it sounds too much like some of the beliefs of some religions.

[catgate]

SORRY, can't swallow that business of programming. For a start it sounds too much like some of the beliefs of some religions.

As a small child my mother used to say, "Don't touch that knife, it's very sharp." One day when she was not there I touched it. I do not know which was the most unpleasant, the deep cut, mother's smacking, or being found to be disobedient. The one thing it did was to start to programme me on how to handled a knife safely. After a few more cuts, and additions to the programme, I now do it quite safely, without really thinking about it.

The same is true about riding a bike. I can now tell you why I fell off when I was learning, but the actions to take to avoid falling off were, at that time, programmed into my subconscious through experience, without me having any conscious input.

I think that most programming, or conditioning if you like, is caused through physical and/or emotional effects rather than just plain thought or reason.

When some of the "values" that I was programmed to believe were good turned out, after more years of programming, to be "bad", I was very hurt and disappointed, but as the years go by, and it happens again and again, even to the point of having changed values changed again, clearer patterns begin to emerge.

The one thing I am left with though, at the end of it, is that I know how to take care with knives and also how not to fall off a bike.

[andsome]

I can't quite make my mind up whether or not you are talking about a learning process which of course I agree with, or are you talking about pre-ordination, which I think is a load of nonsense, and hence my reference to certain religious beliefs. Are you actually saying that we learn from experience, or are you saying g that our lives are already pre ordained?

[catgate]

We learn from our experience, but an enormous amount of this learning is done in such a way that we are not concious of having learned.

I was thinking about this earlier whilst shaving and realised that I do it quite automatically. Every morning my mouth twist and contorts, apparently without any input on my behalf, in order to let the razor get the best angle of approach. Whilst my mouth is doing this the hand holding the razor is also running on auto pilot and putting the razor in exactly the right place.

I have been conditioned/programmed to do so many things in this way. In the case of shaving I have conditioned /programmed myself, but other programming has been done by external forces.

Some of the things done in this way are extremely difficult to do if one tries to think them through whilst doing them. Take tying shoelaces. Think that out logically as you do it, and try to control the movement of each finger.

A brain surgeon could possibly describe the shortcuts and "channels" that are formed in the brain to facilitate this behaviour. I feel sure it must have some survival/rapid action reponse connection, and I am equally sure that a lot of our activity is based on reacting to a circumstance in a previously successful way. The more this circumstance is successfully dealt with by this present method, the more we are programmed by it. Until eventually much of what we think and do (like finding the right key on the key board) is a preprogrammed resonse.

[andsome]

I think I understand your arguments fully now. I thought for a while that you were heading down the pre ordination path. I don't know if you have ever learnt to play a musical instrument. I found as a child that having learnt a piece on the piano, and improved until I could play it well, I just didn't need to think in future whilst playing it, in fact if I tried to do so I was likely to mess it up.

[Thos]

I think I understand your arguments fully now. I thought for a while that you were heading down the pre ordination path. I don't know if you have ever learnt to play a musical instrument. I found as a child that having learnt a piece on the piano, and improved until I could play it well, I just didn't need to think in future whilst playing it, in fact if I tried to do so I was likely to mess it up.

I must confess, catgate, that I also thought that you were arguing that everything was set down for an individual. No matter what he/she did, a set path had to be followed.

However, I do agree that whatever you, me or anyone else does is conditioned by their past experience. But where does this advance the debate of freedom of choice? We choose, as you say, based on what we have learned over our lifetime. nevertheless we are free to make that choice. When you are shaving you know that if you hold the razor a certain way you will get a cut. So if you choose to commit suicide you hold the razor so that your throat is cut. A funny old way to exercise a freedom but it is a freedom nevertheless.

My earlier remarks about concepts were intended to indicate my belief that whilst we can recognise that, for instance, our democracy of party politics, is by no means perfect, we should work within it to try to ensure that we get a government which is closest to our beliefs.

I'm going for a lie-down. :P

Thos.

[catgate]

My freedom of choice is limited to choosing those things to which I currently acquiesce. I could not choose otherwise (without being even more mentally deranged than I am). Thus I do not have freedom of choice. It is limited by my past experiences and conditioning/programming. My thought patterns and way of reasoning are constrained and channeled by this conditioning/programming. Hence my assertion that we do not really have, nor can we ever hope to have, total freedom of choice.

All the troubles in the world today can be laid at the door of conditioning/programming. Religion can only survive through its continued use, and all of the world's wars have been about greed, usually condoned by religious conditioning, or even started by religious conditioning.

[Thos]

My freedom of choice is limited to choosing those things to which I currently acquiesce. I could not choose otherwise (without being even more mentally deranged than I am). Thus I do not have freedom of choice. It is limited by my past experiences and conditioning/programming. My thought patterns and way of reasoning are constrained and channeled by this conditioning/programming. Hence my assertion that we do not really have, nor can we ever hope to have, total freedom of choice.

All the troubles in the world today can be laid at the door of conditioning/programming. Religion can only survive through its continued use, and all of the world's wars have been about greed, usually condoned by religious conditioning, or even started by religious conditioning.

I am sorry, but now you are going back to what I feared you were on about originally. And I cannot concur.

Thos.

[andsome]

This getting involved now, I'm going out for another game of bowls. I made my own mind up. :) :) :)