Legal advice? Re: car sale

[nellie2]

A young lad I work with bought a BMW.. about 15 years old with lots of letters and numbers after the bmw bit BMW318iS :huh: Anyway it was a private sale, the car is about 14 years old and he paid £1000 for it. This was 6 weeks ago, the cylinder head has now cracked (it is a double one I think.... twin cam??) It is going to cost about £800 for the part :huh: although he may be able to get it cheaper from a breaker... then of course there is the labour to pay etc.

Was just wondering, where does he stand with the person who sold him this lemon???

[Agent Smith]

I may be wrong here Nellie, but as it was a private sale, I think he is going to have to put this down to experience. I think the only way he may be able to get out of this, is if he is able to prove that the seller knew about the fault, and denied any knowledge of it if he was asked about it at the time of sale. However, that is going to be almost impossible to prove :(

The general advice regarding secondhand car purchasing, is to have it surveyed by a reputable company (such as the AA or RAC) prior to the sale. I know it costs money, but as you can see in this case, it would have been well spent.

Mr. M.

[djohn]

I think smithy is the person to give you the best advice on this nel. Generally though a car bought privately is "Bought as seen" A lot will depend on how the car was advertised and if any service history came with the car. Was any false or misleading information given by the seller?

Did the head crack after 6 weeks, if so why? were there any indications that this was present when the car was first checked? [Water in the oil. Oil in the water, water vapour coming from the exhaust pipe, or staining around the cylinder head.]

Is it a genuine private sale? Many traders advertise cars giving the impression they are private sales and if this is the case then your friend will have the same rights as if bought from a trader.

It's a sorry tale and I feel for your friend but this underlines the need for an RAC/AA inspection or even a very knowledgeable friend to check the car for you even at a price as low as this. It is a low price for a car but still a lot of money to find, especially when the price is almost doubled within 6 weeks. :(

[EDIT] Mr. M. said it all while I was typing!

[andsome]

I concur with the comments so far. A sad tale, but buyer beware.

[pwp]

The general advice regarding secondhand car purchasing, is to have it surveyed by a reputable company (such as the AA or RAC) prior to the sale. I know it costs money, but as you can see in this case, it would have been well spent.

just to add to this

the daughter recently had a car ( jap import ) that had serious suspension problems. this had been surveyed by the AA when she rang them all they would do was give her the cost of the survey back.

so paying them to look at it guarantees nothing because if they don't spot it

your still on your own.

[Sir Radfordin]

Surely an inspection from someone like the AA should give you some level of cover against future problems? Seems to be a little pointless otherwise?

[pwp]

you would think so but apparently not.

as always the small print is on there side.

[Smiffy99]

Nellie -

I am a little incapacitated at present, due to nearly amputating my thumb at the weekend so will keep this short.

The sale of the car will be covered by the Sale of Goods Act and there are a number of provisions in that statute that may be applicable. Most important are any representations or warranities that the seller made to you friend before the sale. By "warranties" I do not mean "Bring it back within three months if it breaks" but the legal definition of warranty - the seller "warrants" that the car is in good condition, or is fault free etc.

On top of the SOGA there are common law rules concerning representations etc that were made to induce your friend to buy the car. They may be mere "puffs" (a sales pitch and not intended to have legal effect) or they may be warranties or representations which CAn be relied upon.

I suggest that you ask your friend for as much information as to what was said during the course of negotiations and post back - I can let you have the legal implications of them which may help. (In one case a car needed to have its engine replaced within 6 months of purchase - it was held that this rendered the car unfit at the time of sale, although in your case the fact that it is 15 years old may work against you)

As to the AA inspections, dont bother!

Unless you know absolutely nothing about a car there is little that they can ascertain at the roadside (where you are buying the car from) by a basic inspection - it would be very unlikely that a cylinder head failure would be spotted inless the crack was obvious and perhaps a cylinder had lost compression).

Apart from this, the actual terms and conditions of the AA inspection will be full of caveats avoiding any responsibilty for errors or ommissions etc.

Also, one of the "benefits" of an inspection is to ensure that there is no outstanding finance on the car (An HPI check). This is unnecessary in most cases as under the Hire Purchase Act 1964 if a car is sold to a bona fide purchaser for value without notice who is not a dealer then he will get fgood title that will defeat that of the hire purchase company!

[djohn]

RAC don't seem to offer this cover now but used to! The AA still offer the warranty in their premium inspection. Autotrader will also offer independent checks with warranty whether you buy the car through them or not and the cost is only £90.00 with warranty. click on the respective buttons for more info.

http://www.autotrader.co.uk/CARS/motoring/...tion-centre.jsp

[Tankus]

"cavet emptor"

buyer beware

think this comes under tough s*** ...live and learn ..!.......sold as seen

Worth passing the buck, for a dollar, to someone else ...? (AA)

[Smiffy99]

It would appear from the AA's terms that they probably would not have found the fault -

1 Our Car Inspections are prepared from visual and external checks only and are limited to the parts and/or items identified on the Car Inspections sheet. Car Inspections do not involve dismantling or disturbing of any structure, assembly, component or internal mechanism.

2 Items which are listed on the Car Inspections sheet, but which are not reasonably accessible on the checked vehicle will not be inspected. In such circumstances we will be under no obligation to inspect and/or report on the part/item in question and will mark the relevant section of the report accordingly.

3 Without prejudice to clauses 1 and 2 above, please note that amongst the items we do not check are:

(a) Oil and fuel consumption

(B) Source of oil leaks

© -

(d) -

(e) -

(f) -

(g) Cylinder compression

(h) -

4.1 Our Car Inspection Advanced Check can only describe and/or identify defects actually found and/or which are reasonably capable of being found upon external visual consideration of the vehicle at the time of inspection. We cannot be held and are not responsible for any latent defects which are later discovered. (We cannot advise of defects if we cannot see them, or they are not apparent during inspection of the vehicle concerned.) In particular please note that (without limiting the possibility to such vehicles) vehicles over 5 years old, those that have a high mileage or which have been subjected to abnormal use may have latent defects. Whilst such defects may, in appropriate circumstances, give rise to a claim against a vehicle supplier they fall outside the scope of our reports and our reports are provided to, and accepted by, customers on this basis.

[djohn]

Agree fully with your explanation of the report Smiffy. No inspection can foretell the future but if you know nothing about the workings of a car it will at least give you some idea of it's present condition, as would the knowledge of someone with experience of buying/selling used cars.

A knowledgeable person can see many things immediately that the average buyer will miss or not even know what to look for. I'm sure you will know, there are many tell-tale signs to look for that will confirm or otherwise the sellers description.

[nellie2]

Thank you Smiffy..... sorry about your thumb :( Do you think you will be able to get your money back seeing as it fell off!!! :huh:

Will post back tomorrow :)

[Smiffy99]

Do you think you will be able to get your money back seeing as it fell off!!!  :huh:

That is a very interesting point - did you know that there is no "property" in human tissue? For example, you dont "Own" the hair on your head, but should you have it cut in a hairdressers as soon as it falls on the floor it becomes the property of the hairdresser? Only where acts of "work or skill" are undertaken to the tissue will "property" be created - such as embalming or preservation - it is why a specific offence of graverobbing was introduced - you could not "steal" a corpse as it belonged to no-one and the definition of theft is the "appropriation of property belonging to another"

Dont you just love these legal nicities?

Still, as a half decent lawyer 2b, I am looking for someone to sue (like the manufacturer of the scythe!!!!)

[nellie2]

food for thought there??? Scarey to think that if I was having a particularly blonde day and managed to chop off a finger or something and it fell on the floor, I would have to ask the owner of the floor if I could have my/his finger back so that I could ask the nice surgeons to attempt micro-surgery!!!!

[Besty]

The advice I always heard was to get a mechanic to check it over or buy trade

[nellie2]

You might be interested to know.... that the lad has managed to find a part in a reclaimers yard and has someone to do the work for him.... it is still going to cost him £500 plus!

[andsome]

You might be interested to know.... that the lad has managed to find a part in a reclaimers yard and has someone to do the work for him.... it is still going to cost him £500 plus!

At least that's something