THE TORIES

[The Grump]

It looks like the Tories are no longer the viable opposition in this country after failing to make any ground on Labour in yesterdays by-elections.

The electorate in Leicester and Birmingham remembered that the Tories supported Blair in the war in Iraq.

The Lib-Dems will also make the most of being the only mainstream party to oppose the war in Iraq.

The Tories decision to replace Duncan-Smith with Michael Howard as not worked. The electorate still see him as Mr Poll Tax, and they expect more such hairbrained policies from him if he was elected.

After their poor showing in the recent elections, how long before the Money Barons who prop up the Tories will want a change of leadership?

[andsome]

After their poor showing in the recent elections, how long before the Money Barons who  prop up the Tories will want a change of leadership?

Who knows. I certainly would not want a Lib Dem government. They would hand us over to Europe lock, stock, and barrel. I believe that their good showing was merely a protest vote against Cheesy.

[Robbers Dog]

Who would you have instead of the present government, surely not UKIP with their racialist policies that put them on par with the BNP.

[-pops-]

Howard is also remembered as an opponent of a number of sensible social reforms and the supporter of several nonsensical ones when he was one of Thatchers toadies and more so as home secretary.

Another thing is the association, by the red top press, of his Transylvanian origins and Dracula. Could be classed, I suppose, as a watered down racist view similar to those held by another party much publicised last evening.

Politics is too important to be controlled by politicians.

[andsome]

Who would you have instead of the present government, surely not UKIP with their racialist  policies that put them on par with the BNP.

There is NOTHING at all racist in NOT wanting to be ruled by Europe. You cannot call the UKIP racist because of a regrettable remark by that idiot Kilroy Silk. I was happy to vote UKIP in the European elections, because I am happy to be part of a common market, but not happy to be ruled by an unelected commission, with a parliament of the whole of Europe rubber stamping the commissions decisions.

[catgate]

Politics is too important to be controlled by politicians.

Politics should be left to the politicians but they should be banned from taking any part whatsoever in any form of goverment. Government should be carried out by the people through referenda. The whole business of referenda and their content being delegated to a true parliament (French for talking shop) who would be selected in the manner we currently select juries.

[The Grump]

UKIP are the acceptable face of the far right. They are a mishmash of right wing ex- Tories and neo-fascists. One of their main policies is the repatriation of immigrants.

[-pops-]

Politics should be left to the politicians but they should be banned from taking any part whatsoever in any form of goverment.

I'll accept that as a second best :)

[andsome]

Politics is too important to be controlled by politicians.

Politics should be left to the politicians but they should be banned from taking any part whatsoever in any form of goverment. Government should be carried out by the people through referenda. The whole business of referenda and their content being delegated to a true parliament (French for talking shop) who would be selected in the manner we currently select juries.

I don't think that this idea is practical. Unfortunately there are far too many people who's minds and imagination can stretch beyond soap opera and reality TV programmes, and what is the current No. one pop tune. They are not interested in anything else. I dread to think about the logistical problems of putting every little item of legislation to a referendum. Regarding having committees elected in a similar fashion to juries, who is going to offer their services other than people who currently want to be politicians? Who is going to have the time to devote to such a scheme if it is to be done without payment? Alternatively if payment is to be made we get back to the idea that the only people who would be interested would be the would be politicians. The whole thing would soon grind to a halt. The only things that can be put to a referendum, are really big items like Currency membership etc. I don't honesty think that you have thought this idea through thoroughly.

[catgate]

One of their main policies is the repatriation of immigrants.

From my point of view that does not seem unreasonable. I do find it rather burdensome to be obliged to hold open my wallet to any Tom, d***, Ali, Serg or Pedro that comes along and say "Here, my good fellow, help yourself.", just for the long term benefit of the freeloading carpetbaggers who are ruining the country. :angry:

[catgate]

I don't honesty think that you have thought this idea through thoroughly.

Well andsome it is all thoroughly thought out, and all the point you address, and many more, are laid out in , yes you've guessed, http://www.angelfire.com/realm3/accord . But, before you go and read it get yourself a nice large cold beer (or whatever) because it need reading, with a completely open mind devoid of preconception, rather than just being "looked at", and that will take more than a couple of minutes.

[Tankus]

If we want a workable social service from cradle to grave , I dont see how we can have an unresticted open door policy as well ...... I go along with catgate on that one

[andsome]

If we want a workable social service from cradle to grave , I dont see how we can have an unresticted open door policy as well ...... I go along with catgate on that one

I go along with this as well. I cannot however go along with what I can only describe as hair brained schemes on the link that Catgate has posted. He advocates referendums for just about every decision to be made. The country would grind to a halt. He also advocates government by committee, the committees to be selected in a similar way to juries at present, and has the cheek to suggest that these committees should come from the over 60's to avoid the inexperience I suppose of youth. How dare he tell me that I am to be liable to be enlisted for a ten year spell of committee work after I have retired from almost fifty years of working for a living. I have done my whack and can only pour scorn on such a daft idea. Without wishing to be disrespectful, the ideas on the website are ill thought out and completely unworkable. I'm sorry, but I do not feel inclined to devote the time necessary to reading the whole of the dirge, I have better things to do, and can recognise this as a non starter without spending more than a few minutes. Please don't take offence at my posting, and I won't take offence at you trying to organise my time in my well earned retirement.

[Tankus]

He advocates referendums for just about every decision to be made

funny that .......but thats where moon ( I think, if I follow his line of reasoning) has been banging on about ....electronic referendum ... decisions are made by the masses .......( Ive just cained a Jacobs Creek ...probably what made me think of him )

Heres a thought for the future ...."organic computers" implanted at birth and keyed to that persons DNA .....a symbiotic relationship ... It cannot survive without the host (is that parastic...?) but you cannot be a full citizen without one , jobs ,health-care , pensions , voting , social services , door locks, bank accounts ,education, basically , integration into " the " society ....

Get rid of the government ...all decisions made by consensus of the citizens ... keyed via the implant to that individual person ...true equality .?

Maybe when I reach your stage in life ...andsome ..? ....I doubt there will be any government support for old age , if you have not made your own provisions by them ...!

Perhaps this decade or the last may be looked upon as the "golden " age ...?

[andsome]

Maybe when I reach your stage in life ...andsome ..? ....I doubt there will be any government support for old age , if you have not made your own provisions by them ...!

Perhaps this decade or the last may be looked upon as the "golden " age ...?

Well over half of my income is what I have paid for in Private pension plans, Peps and Isa's.

[moon]

The Tories decision to replace Duncan-Smith with Michael Howard as not worked. The electorate still see him as Mr Poll Tax, and they expect more such hairbrained policies from him if he was elected.

After their poor showing in the recent elections, how long before the Money Barons who prop up the Tories will want a change of leadership?

They fitted up Duncan-Smith, a fair and honest man if my judgment serves me well, and got bunged 5 mill by a 'sponsor' for electing Dracula. The Uk's got no earning power left, thanks to Thatchers vision, and I can't see the public forgetting that for a loooooooooooooooong time yet.

Few people have the nuts for electronic voting. Nobody trusts his neighbour , mistakenly, imo.

[catgate]

He also advocates government by committee, the committees to be selected in a similar way to juries at present, and has the cheek to suggest that these committees should come from the over 60's to avoid the inexperience I suppose of youth. How dare he tell me that I am to be liable to be enlisted for a ten year spell of committee work after I have retired from almost fifty years of working for a living.

I did suggest you read it rather than just looked at it. It is obvious from your comments that you have done just what I wanted you to avoid. You have inferred much from little.

You are at present liable for jury service and the chances of you being pressed into service as part of a "committee" are infinitely less (something of the order of 1:10,000,000, depending on the number decided upon as a quorum) but I never hear anyone complain about that, and in the suggested scheme you would not be "enlisted" for ten years merely five, with the option of continuing, should you wish, for a further five. So in effect you would be able to retire at 65 as at present. Furthermore the recompense would be based on "accustomed" income, rather than some bloated figure paid at present to MPs.

All this scheme is not a "set in stone" affair but a means of starting out a system of putting the decision making process (referenda) where it should be, in the hands of the people, and it is perfectly obvious that any detail of the scheme as laid out could, and should, be changed, if the people so wish. However, they should be guided by a group of older, more experienced people. Older and more experienced than those that are at present knuckling under and "representing" you and I in the way designated by whosoever controls access to the trough. If the people choose to ignore the recommendations of the "guiders" so be it. My hope would be that once sensible broad based decisions were taken, and legislation passed, then there would cease to be a constant need for shuffling of rules and laws for political gain as has happened over the last fifty years and more.That might be a pious hope but at least the wrong decisions would be taken by the right people.

It is worth pointing out that a major part of the scheme is to rid ourselves of "parties" because by their definition they are each an organisation bent on furthering their own cause, and, when one looks at the number of "members" in each, it is truly a travesty of representative legislation making.

[Tankus]

Is it the neighbour ...or who controls it ...?

moon

The Uk's got no earning power left

substitute UK for Tories..................... no satchi and satchi for the gloss ...Its a bit superficial , but isn't that what B'liar has built his whole career on ...!

[catgate]

The Tories decision to replace Duncan-Smith with Michael Howard as not worked.

I was once told that politics is like sewage. The scum always rises to the top.

[pwp]

One of their main policies is the repatriation of immigrants.

From my point of view that does not seem unreasonable. I do find it rather burdensome to be obliged to hold open my wallet to any Tom, d***, Ali, Serg or Pedro that comes along and say "Here, my good fellow, help yourself.", just for the long term benefit of the freeloading carpetbaggers who are ruining the country. :angry:

i agree

especially when they hijack planes to get here. :censored:

[catgate]

I am disappointed that, following my reply (July 16 20:00) to his display of self opinionated irresponsibility (July 16 18.04), andsome has not thought it worthwhile to "read" the documentation that he damns out of hand, and come back with some sort of "reasoned" response.

I am not objecting to criticism, in fact objective constructive criticism I find helpful, particularly with regard to a subject as far reaching as that on the site. What I am disappointed about is his criticism, by means of definitive assertions, made without understanding of, and regard for, the true content of the documentation. Blair did the same didn't he? He chose to give out a definitive assertion without making sure the documentation supported his case.

I said that it was necessary to read the material, rather than just look at it, and what did he say in his reply? "I'm sorry, but I do not feel inclined to devote the time necessary to reading the whole of the dirge, I have better things to do, and can recognise this as a non starter without spending more than a few minutes."

Then he has the gall to say "what I can only describe as hair brained schemes" without, by his own addmission, reading through it all.

Additionally, the bit he uses to to decry the scheme is something that he has not read through thoroughly, and as a result has failed to understand.

I can understand his wish to skip through it because there is a lot of reading to do. It had to be so, because it is necessary to lay it all out in detail, so that those people who are not just as smart as others are led along gradually, without the danger of their jumping to false conclusions. However, if they do not read it carefully, and with a mind devoid of preconceived ideas, they will go away, not having grasped it all, and will label it as "ill thought out and completely unworkable".

Prior to my retirement I spent over thirty years with a well known mutinational as a senior manager in the R&D division. Over twenty of those were as Quality Assurance and Technical Services Manager. One of the departments for which I was responsible was the Specifications Dept. where all the company specifications were generated, published, and maintained. The entire success (or otherwise) of the companies operation depended on a well thought out and workable scheme, issuing accurate and clearly expressed information. Why am I explaining this?

Well for two reasons. First to indicate that as a chemist and an engineer there is no space in my life for inaccuracy and wooly thinking, and second to point out that had andsome been working for me, with his sloppy inaccurate approach and his "do not confuse me with facts, my mind is made up" attitude, his tenure would have been considerably shorter than his "more than fifty years".

As all forms of government becomes ever increasingly corrupt, not just here but world wide, a new system is desperately needed. It is so easy for we BOFs to sit back and decry it all, but until BOFs, with their experience of things, and younger people, who have not yet found all the answers, combine, in an attempt to alter things in a radical way, then "civilisation" can only continue on its downward spiral.

The "It'll never work" attitude is all too often used as an excuse for apathy and disinterest and to disguise a feeling of inadequacy. Initially this was applied to aeroplanes, radio, television, and even our computers, but through the efforts of one or two genuinely concerned individuals progress was made, and we can see the results of their efforts today. I hoped that the documentation on my site could start a similar progress.

[andsome]

He does go on a bit doesn't he? I do not feel any compulsion to read a great long self opinionated dirge. We all have our own points of view and are all entitled to them. For all it's faults and warts, I happen to prefer democracy to any of the alternatives. As soon as I saw on that website that government by committee was being suggested, and that that committee was to be selected by chance the same way as a jury, and in fact selected from the over 60 year olds, that was enough to turn me off. If anyone can wade through the whole dirge and convince me otherwise then please go ahead. It is true that recent governments from both the major parties have been somewhat lacking. However to even think that government by an unelected committee of people who have just entered a well earned retirement is preferable, is woolly haired thinking in the extreme. I for one would fight tooth and nail if I was co-opted into such a scheme. Had I wanted to help run the country I would have stood for parliament many years ago. I don't propose to enter a slanging match and this posting will be my last word on this subject. Just don't include me in your daft plans PLEASE.

[moon]

Bravo chaps. I'm pleased to see that you Pommy seniors have teeth. According to the telly you take whatever is handed out whilst gumming a rusk. :D

[andsome]

Bravo chaps. I'm pleased to see that you Pommy seniors have teeth.  According to the telly you take whatever is handed out whilst gumming a rusk. :D

Used to like a nice Farleys rusk when I was a toddler. That was of course many moons ago. (PUN)

[moon]

Wot you doing 'ere ? it sez up there that you've had your last word. :D