ID Cards

[Tankus]

Biometric data to be included .......but I was agog over this

Thousands of Muslim women will be exempted from having to show their faces on identity cards as the Government moves to allay fears among British Muslims that the new cards will be used to target them in the 'war on terror'

The Guardian

Photos in Burkah's ....? you just cannot make it up...can you

For antiterroism ...?

I think more useful for benefit fraud

[-pops-]

There is much more to this issue than the three choices in the poll indicate.

We must get rid of the fools and oafs in authority before anything sensible is possible and then answer the question: What is the purpose of these cards?

Is it to prevent terrorism? Well, as was demonstrated in Madrid recently, it doesn't do that.

Is it to provide convenient health records? I already have an NHS card with my unique number on it that should be able to access my (copious) medical records. The fact that it can't do that at present is because of the dinosaur computer system in use at wherever these things are recorded.

Is it to provide a convenient means of travelling? Well, in a united Europe there is supposed to be NO let or hindrance to any of its members going to any country within the community. If it's to provide convenience to travelling further afield, I already have a passport and it will require huge international cooperation (especially with the USA) before any alternative becomes acceptable - unlikely.

Is it to provide a convenient means of keeping tabs on the UK population? That's getting more like it. An addition to the multiple other means of keeping us under surveillance. Big Brother had nothing on what is in prospect now. George Orwell was just a few years early in his apocalyptic stories.

Do we want another Romania as it was under Nicolae Ceausescu? Things are getting that way.

[Besty]

Is it for all people in the u.k

[Tankus]

The French don't seem to have any problems with it , and their contempt for government machinations is considerably more active than ours ....

They seem to blockade and strike ant the drop of a hat...

It (the technology) is sneaking up on us anyway .Last week a kid with no criminal record whatsoever , threw a brick at a lorry resulting in the drivers death (from a heart attack)...There was DNA traces from him left on a brick , this was traced to an uncle in his family who did have a criminal record, all members of his family were checked for the match , resulting in the youths arrest .

The first family trace of its kind..

DNA id included in the Biometrics....?

All personal databases linked to this one "card"..? (Medical , financial,criminal,personal and maybe preferential..?)

There may be a genetic underclass heading our way , Insurance companies cherry pick "clean" DNA 's for people predisposed to health , congenital disease sufferers cannot get jobs ,as companies use the card as a requirement for job vacancies ..

What if DNA profiling gets even more precise .....which is probably likely sooner rather than later , where its not just racial characteristics that are definable , but things like IQ ,and possibly , personality traits,which are not always environmentally affected ...(Alpha males, aggressiveness, propensity to addictions and dependency, fertility, carrying recessives )

Starting with the best intentions ....?

But leading to what ..?

[artist]

If there's nothing to hide - why not? :)

[Tankus]

You have no control over your genetic inheritance ..... what if this excludes you from a part of the society that we live in .....

Wealth does this , but you always have the possibility of earning it ...!

[nellie2]

Hmmm, well if I was excluded from giving blood because of something nasty that I was carrying then that could only be a good thing.

[Tankus]

I am already excluded .....

Because I had several blood transfusions in the mid 80's

[Guest ellas]

what about the £70 they want us to pay for it,and what good did the I.d cards do in spain to stop the bombers ,nel said "if I was excluded from giving blood because of something nasty that I was carrying then that could only be a good thing".when the likes of employers,insurance/loan companies etc get there hands on genetic inheritance well that person is doomed no ones going to take on a person who is a genetic timebomb, if I was not such a cynic I would think the government are using the Iraqui conflict as a excuse to push it though,the truth is they just want to rule everybody and everystep they take and I think is a bit lazy to say "I've got nothing to hide why not" well I've nothing to hide but thats not the point its about having some personal freedom and this is the thin edge of the wedge.

[pwp]

I'm not against id cards in principal, but would be against being criminalised for not having it about my person.

Ialso feel that foreigners who do not want to live by the rules in this country

should be shown the door, just as we would be in theirs.

[artist]

'all about having personal freedom' is a bit strong. What exactly would having an ID card curtail?

It would certainly sort out the 'chaff'.

[Guest ellas]

if I remember artist you were up in arms about it being possible for admin to read pms,which in the end led to it being removed,you could apply the "If there's nothing to hide" to that,the pm system was there for the protection of members yet you disaproved of that on personal freedom but not ID cards so whats the difference.

[Smiffy99]

Lets just think about the information that is already held on each and every one of us.

Think about where a lot of this data is colected - the post office!

Yep, pay your car tax and there is a record of your car, insurance, mot address etc.

Collect a benefit and they have more.

Pay a utility bill even more so.

Want a passport? Have all your details checked there first.

Driving licence? - Same thing.

Now they are working with the banks......

Not a lot the post office does not already know about you and who runs that?????

[artist]

if I remember artist you were up in arms about it being possible for admin to read pms,which in the end led to it being removed,you could apply the "If there's nothing to hide" to that,the pm system was there for the protection of members yet you disaproved of that on personal freedom but not ID cards so whats the difference.

Somewhat different to ID cards, dont you think?

[Sir Radfordin]

Don't really have a view on it either way. No-one has put forward a strong case for how the use of ID cards will be enforced. The police find it hard enough to deal with crime as it is (not their fault I'm sure) so how will this actually make a difference?

It is very easy to hold the view "I've nothing to hide" or "what difference will it make if this information is known" but I feel we don't really have any idea of what could go wrong with this system. There are some serious ethical questions, such as unintentional power, that need to be explored before we go ahead.

Surely if the system is designed to combat terrorism and crime then we should see cost savings for the police and so the cards should fund themselves.

If you have to pay £70 for an ID Card, and then around £40 for a passport you are spending £130 just to prove who you are. Combine the whole lot into one simple system that really does reduce costs and it will be an argument in favour of the system.

You don't know what you have to hide until it is too late.

[don't ask]

My problem is - if I am issued with yet another card that I have to carry around - where do I physically put the darned thing when I am out and about (or even at home) so that it is safe and secure and no-one can nick it?

Are they proposing to have cards with a photo on it?

Sorry to sound stupid (I probably am!!) but I tend to only absorb things that affect me from day to day - I get neurotic enough about my credit card wallet and making sure the things in it remain safe (and that I can remember where I actually put the wallet :rolleyes: ).

I don't think I am too worried about the fact that a lot of information about me is collated and put on record - I get more concerned that a lot of information about me exists on records at various sources but is NOT collated at a central point (look at the Ian Huntley thing for example - sorry .. extreme example ... but medically &etc it would certainly be helpful).

You don't know what you have to hide until it is too late - Yes - that gives me causes for thought though ...

[djohn]

Hi don't ask. It won't be compulsory to carry the card, just to have one. Sort of like your driving licence.If you can't produce it at the point of request then you'll have X days to produce it at the local police station.

This makes the whole point seem a waste of time, just more paperwork and inconvenience.

"Nothing to hide" How many of us say this? It's as though it gives us a clean bill of health and "I'm better than you" attitude. I've got nothing to hide, you can have all my details, I'm as clean as freshly fallen snow.

The truth is, most, if not all of us have said/done something during our lives, (no matter how small) that we would prefer others not to know. Do I want to know every personal and intimate detail of the whole of all of my neighbours lives? Most certainly not and I don't want them or the Government to know mine either.

Individual departments of work/Pensions/health/ Banking/Insurance companies etc have all the details they need to have regarding me and themselves. Why should they all be able to cross reference with each other and put me into some sort of category that they think I fit.

This is very frightening! Think of all he films you've watched over the past few years that have shown this very sort of civilisation we could end up with.

Unless you are born into the right genetic code then at birth you may be sterilised to prevent you from spreading this sub-standard genetic code throughout your life. You may be denied the privilege of education beyond a certain point. You'll be ideal for any minor task, so be allowed a life of sorts. After all who is going to do the menial task for the privileged minority.

Over the past few years when we have phoned our Bank or Credit card supplier we could tap a few numbers into the phone keypad giving our details and by the time we reached an operator they would know who we are. fair enough, we tapped in the details in the first instance and had the choice to do so or not. Now if I phone my Bank/Credit card company and skip the automated request to wait for someone to speak to, they address me by my name, just ask me to confirm a few details. "How did you know it was me" I ask? "Your phone line gave us all the details we needed" is the reply!

Go to the web-site "Where I live" or is it "Down your street"? and you will be given full details of the class of people you live among, their average education/financial standing/ employment/unemployment. Whether you are living in a high crime-rate area the percentage of your neighbours who own or rent their homes. their average debt, do they rent or own a washing machine/TV, subscribe to Sky TV. How to improve your credit rating or reduce your life/car/home insurance policy by changing your post code. This may entail just a move across the road and your whole life can be upgraded immediately.

Details kept on a database can be so inappropriate to your personal life as you are graded on the people around you. ID cards are just another step in this frightening world we are rushing blindly into. :(

[-pops-]

What ID do you have to produce to get an ID card?

(This may be on Ceefax letters later on)

[Sir Radfordin]

Close there Djohn its UpMyStreet - http://www.upmystreet.com/

[The Grump]

Paranoia

[-pops-]

Just checked my postcode on your reference, Sir R.

Interesting but some glaring errors of fact, one being that the nearest school is 5.9 miles away. Doesn't the road running parallel to mine (and detailed on the attached map) being called School Road mean anything to them?

Nice to know, though, that I live in:

Type 10: Affluent Working Families with Mortgages

(2.1 per cent of the population live in this ACORN Type) with:

Heavy ITV viewing: Low. Ownership of stocks and shares: High.

Microwave purchases: Medium. Buying home with a mortgage: High.

2+ Car Ownership: High. Population Aged 0-14: High.

And, and!!!! I've found out who my MP is. Shows how good and how interested in his constituents he is, doesn't it? Never heard of him either during election time or performing at the Westminster mad house.

:) :)

[djohn]

Thanks Sir Rad. Knew it was something along those lines. :lol:

Paranoia? Not in the least bit paranoid. A major part of my life has been spent in areas of fact, not fiction, it's just that the two are now starting to merge. :(

[moon]

I've got plenty to hide and there are millions like me. There is NO WAY we are going to allow any government to further infringe upon our personal lives. On the contrary, while we've still got the chance we're going to dig the dirt on any bugger that tries it and then we're going to make Blunkett's dream an impossibility.

Anonymity is your Right. Don't let terrorists take it away from you.

[Smiffy99]

I remember the time when cashpoint cards had holes in them and were retained by the bank each time you used them and then were sent back to your address. These were replaced by what we have today and the amount of credit card fraud is well known. Now we are to have "Chip and Pin" cards. Well, how often do you get told never to keep you pin number with your card? The fact that they have to keep hammering this home indicates many people do. They are not infallable. Also, what of the card scams where the purpetrator looks over your shoulder to get your pin number and then using some "Loop" retrieves your card after you think the machine has swallowed it?

No matter what we do with credit cards, fraudsters will always find another way...

Passports - remember those that were literally "Written" by hand with a fountain pen? A simple photo was embossed with the agency stamp? well, due to the amount of fraud these have now been replaced with "Better" ones that are computer generated, have a plastic cover that indicates tampering and should not be able to be forged.......How much do they cost in Poland???

The fact is, no matter what sort of technology is used, fraudsters will find a way to abuse it.

Say you new "Biometric" card is obtained by a fraudster. What is to say that with the correct equipment he will not be able to change the retina image to his? Change the data to match his profile? eventually he will be able to use the card and to all intents and purposes it will pass the tests but it is infact YOUR identity he is still using.

Whatever the technology there will always be an abuse possible.

Also, is it right that all this data is kept on one card that can be accessed by so many people? OK, so your "Identity" card could be used to confirm that you are actually who you say you are when you purchase a new car on finance. But in so doing, the garage now has all the data available to them - far maor than they need for the transaction.

Will it stop terrorism? No. A 30 mile swim and you are in the country without any port authorities knowledge. Mind you, you could always use the identity card as a paddle......

[The Grump]

Here's something for you to join if you don't want ID cards.

http://www.tfa.net/

They make the BNP look like p***y cats.