no one in particular Posted October 7, 2004 Report Share Posted October 7, 2004 Hello all. It's great to see a fine looking forum and good members giving feedback in a good taste.I've been on many forums over the years (as far back as espn's first forum/chat line...when it started), and have participated in them....from the high stature of administrator, moderator (overseeing all threads in the forum), to the member level. I have seen many different 'strategies' played out by members to disrupt a forum just to see the chaos ensue, and I do understand the role of moderators and the administrators to keep the peace of their forums. If it were not for a moderating hand to keep the peace, forums would be nothing other than a tool for someone to cause havoc and irritate other people and their entertainment of a forum. Forums are, in the most basic sense, the place to share views, give advice, communicate across vast distances to one another, and expand one another's wisdom/intelligence of the enitre world and it's cultures....be it a person living a life in South Africa talking to someone living in Alaska. Views and ideals are intermixed with a forum....for the sole purpose that each and every person can understand one another on how their life is played out. Each life is different because of how it is lived, for that is how we achieve our uniqueness in this world of ours. And to have forums on the internet, we now have the ability to learn more about life than what our limited surroundings can provide.However............During this communication between cultures, views are not always shared. Sometimes the two opposing views are vastly opposite. Most members can tolerate such opposing views. They understand that whatever they have learned in their life, there's more to life than what they were raised in or taught. But some members do not have the capacity to hold back their debate of how something should be, while thinking the other view is totally false and baseless. Words can flare, insults can be exchanged, tempers become volatile. Therein is where a moderator has use. The moderators function is to settle disputes before they become disruptive or chaotic to his forum. A basic sense of civility is expected, if not demanded, in a forum that can be accessed worldwide with a computer and a modem. And it is a tough job for the moderator to reason with different views/cultures/lives to settle arguments. His reasoning has to stay outside the argument and view the problem from a neutral standpoint.....even if the argument affects him personally in the way he thinks. The hardest part of a moderator's job for him to understand is that even though his forum has become some sort of family to him, he is not truly a part of it....because he is a moderator. He is the police in all matters that cause disruption. If there is a breakage in the rules of the forum, he is the person to enforce them...no mattter who is breaking those rules. However, he is not the overseer of the workings of the forum. The administrator is the overseer who charts the rules and remains the owner of said forums. Therefore, a moderator actually works with one hand tied behind his back....in which makes a moderator's job that much more hard to do. He does enforce rules, but cannot enforce ones that are not in his forum.I understand that this is long, but please be patient. I am coming to a point.In this forum...like many others....there is a free talk section. This section is open for discussion of certain topics (be it off-topic, debate, free for all, etc.) that is not related to what the forum was originally introduced for (this forum, for example, is a windows help forum originally...correct?). Members do and want open areas that they can express other views than what the board offers in other areas. I am currently a member of pcpitstop.com, and understand that this forum and pitstop's forum has many members that interact between the two. The rules between the forums are pretty much the same and disruption is not allowed. Know that I'm not considered a part of the family over there, or over here for that matter. This is from a neutral standpoint.I have seen that moderating a little too much can be disruptive on it's own. As such, I have heard and read about the dispute between the mods here and members over at pcpitstop. Moderation should not be taken to the point where someone's view shouldn't be destroyed from a thread unless there is a violation of rules. And, considering the rules laid out here at this forum, the rules weren't violated (except for the "cowardice", which is pushing it in the most extreme moderating sense). A view was brought out and then silenced. That is not how a forum is run. To censor a non-disruptive view is akin to silencing a member in Congress or in the house of Commons from showing his opposition to a bill. Would you have all members to be 'yes' members? To not show any counter to any view? I say no.In running an open-discussion forum, you cannot have an iron-fist keeping order. In fact, having this "debate" section is just asking people to enter and risk having their view deleted, or be banned. Toleration is a large positive to running such a place, as such a place can bring out many different views. To rule with an iron fist will push new members and existing members away from your forum...sooner or later.I only ask (as a new member and one who has experienced forums from all levels) to be more tolerate towards people's views....and, of course, not have this thread deleted. This is not trolling, spamming, or other...older terms. This is an opinion on how a forum should run. Is it in the wrong place? Not by my eyes (debate section). Is it disruptive? Not at all....for here I ask for ALL to remember what a forum is truly all about. Expressing ideas....views...concerns....Just my $.02 on the matter. Good day all, and peace. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scarecrow Man Posted October 7, 2004 Report Share Posted October 7, 2004 It is good to express how you feel on a certain topic, but like you said a moderator is here to enforce the rules.If we give leaneancy to one user and not another, it would not be fair. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rong Posted October 7, 2004 Report Share Posted October 7, 2004 Scarecrow Man I think you missed the point that was made. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AngelOfSalvation Posted October 7, 2004 Report Share Posted October 7, 2004 It is good to express how you feel on a certain topic, but like you said a moderator is here to enforce the rules.If we give leaneancy to one user and not another, it would not be fair.I understand that you are obligated to your duties as a moderator, however, we at the pit have been informed that two messages were unfairly deleted without any explaination, one being posted by our own moderator Volt. After reading a copy of his post, I fail to see anything wrong with his argument. He wasn't attacking or offending anyone, he was just speaking his mind. I understand the intent if this post is deleted, but I would at least like an explaination. Thank you,-Jake Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scarecrow Man Posted October 7, 2004 Report Share Posted October 7, 2004 I am a moderator, but unfortunatley was not around at the time of these happenings. I have only learned of them after the fact, and am just trying to express my view as a moderator, who was not involved. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
djohn Posted October 7, 2004 Report Share Posted October 7, 2004 no one in particular. Extremely well put and a fair, balanced point of view. It was a pleasure to read your post, whoever you are.Scarecrow Man, you too are correct but have missed the point. There is no excuse at any time for abuse in the forum, or being disruptive in any way. This applies to members and more importantly to Moderators. Moderators have to set an example and standard for others to follow, it is this standard that will make or break a forum.Moderators can step in and stop a thread from getting out of hand, it is their duty to do so. What they should not do is allow personal feelings to show toward any member of the forum, all members should be treated fairly and equally.It is both unfair and unjust for a Moderator to step into a thread and state his personal feelings make unfounded presumptions then lock the thread before anyone can respond.The above can apply to any moderator at any time, I would be grateful if others that read this post don't jump to conclusions and assume I am referring to Northy. I'm not.The forum is unsettled at the moment and some members may be confused with what is happening. It is us the members that need to talk with each other and put to rest once and for all these niggling little problems that could be the downfall of Craig's forum. He has worked hard, along with others to get to where the forum is now, are we seriously wanting to destroy all their efforts?Regards John. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scarecrow Man Posted October 7, 2004 Report Share Posted October 7, 2004 I'm sorry I may have missed the point.Like I said I was un-aware of this until it was nearly over. I always try to take an un bias opinion of a thread and judge weather or not it should be left alone. I have even let some things slip that were later caught by other moderators.When I decide to edit a post, or lock a topic, I like to check a few things first.1. Have any forum rules been broken.2. Is the public in danger3. Will closing or editing cause a problem (sometimes it must be done anyways. example - swearing is an instant edit in my eyes)Lastley, if I edit, I always add edited by: and type a short message why it was edited in blue italics. As well as a PM to the user why I decided to edit it, and if they have any problems feel free to PM me and I will do what I can for them.And of course there are special cases where I would make note of a post, inform fellow moderators and get a majority decision.I do not like stopping people from expressing views, because I live in Canada, very differen't beliefs and rules from England, and I don't want to over step my authority. (something may be illegal here, but totally legal there)I also, as some may have noticed, only been around for about 4 or 5 months, and I am a mod. No I was not an old member returning with a differen't name, that is my original join date.I've said this before when my moderating was in question (when I first became mod) - I'm doing this for you, the members, you make the forum and without you, well it would just be me, myself and my shadow. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Intratech Posted October 7, 2004 Report Share Posted October 7, 2004 Why bother.. the whole forum has gone to the dogs. bye bye. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scarecrow Man Posted October 7, 2004 Report Share Posted October 7, 2004 Not true. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Intratech Posted October 7, 2004 Report Share Posted October 7, 2004 Well it sure ain't the same as when I joined. ;) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scarecrow Man Posted October 7, 2004 Report Share Posted October 7, 2004 Can you be more specific? Is it something I can help with? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doug Posted October 7, 2004 Report Share Posted October 7, 2004 Just a quick point folks, here in England we have a game called Cricket. People play by the rules. Now in the good old days if the Umpire (Moderator) gave a ruling, his decision was accepted as the final arbitrator, however unfair the decision was thought to be. The game was played by Gentlemen and players. I believe Ladies started to play the game. So folks lets all play the game by the rules and accept decisions whether we like them or not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scarecrow Man Posted October 7, 2004 Report Share Posted October 7, 2004 Well said Doug, one thing to add though. Moderators are NOT exempt from the rules. We have to follow them the same as everyone else. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
djohn Posted October 7, 2004 Report Share Posted October 7, 2004 doug, even the good old game of cricket has now found it necessary to have a third umpire because of the mistakes made by those in charge. :( Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doug Posted October 7, 2004 Report Share Posted October 7, 2004 Yes but in the good old days the decisions were accepted for what they were. All these rules and regulations are causing chaos in the world. and making life so much more complicated. Ahh bring the good old days back. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scarecrow Man Posted October 7, 2004 Report Share Posted October 7, 2004 Just be thankful we're not a communist forum! :D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sir T Fireball Posted October 7, 2004 Report Share Posted October 7, 2004 The good old days....how far back do we go? When cricket began, women never had the vote. Racial discrimination was the norm. Children were in workhouses. Life expectancy was much lower than it is now. :unsure: We have learned to become a more open and tolerant society. No longer is the 'do as I say, not as I do' philosophy acceptable. Someone isn't revered by right of their having grey hair. Nor are their actions blindly accepted because they are promoted to a position of authority. Respect has to be earned nowadays and rightly so I believe.I don't think this site has any major problems. In the main, you seem a great bunch of people who seem to get along fine for the most part. The one bone of contention seems to be this issue of moderating/editing posts without explanation. I cannot see how this is such a monumental obstacle. Simply give the membership this one courtesy of explaining any edits and that should be an end to it. Is it really so much to ask? Just how long would it take to type a brief reason for any moderation anyway? Moderators must remove their defensive gaurds and accept that a higher degree of public accountability is not an unreasonable request in this day and age. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Damo Posted October 7, 2004 Report Share Posted October 7, 2004 'No One in Particular', That's a good post, and one that I like to see, a good healthy debate, with good points being made, and no personal attacks or insinuations being made!I'm in a unique situation at the moment where I can see both sides of the argument, because I was a Mod here until work commitments meant I was unable to give the time to the role.I also agree with Sir T Fireball (How strange!?) that it really is a mountain being made out of a mole hill. This is something that can be put right pretty much instantly.I'm in Full support of all the members of this site and All the MODS including Northy, I've been here alongside him from the beginning, and he's had pretty much a tough time of things, everything he did, he got called out for on an open forum, it almost seemed like a campaign against him.I would love the site to go back to how it was with a firm set of guidlines for ALL members (Including mods) to abide by.Thats my rant over with......back to the beer.PeaceDamo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scarecrow Man Posted October 7, 2004 Report Share Posted October 7, 2004 Actually Damo, I'll agree with Sir T. on this as well.We have learned to become a more open and tolerant society. No longer is the 'do as I say, not as I do' philosophy acceptable. Someone isn't revered by right of their having grey hair. Nor are their actions blindly accepted because they are promoted to a position of authority. Respect has to be earned nowadays and rightly so I believe. Very true.I don't think this site has any major problems. In the main, you seem a great bunch of people who seem to get along fine for the most part. The one bone of contention seems to be this issue of moderating/editing posts without explanation. I cannot see how this is such a monumental obstacle. Simply give the membership this one courtesy of explaining any edits and that should be an end to it. Is it really so much to ask? Just how long would it take to type a brief reason for any moderation anyway? I for one have never done such things, and if I have, I will appologize for it now. I totally agree with this comment, but, you have to be unbias, and think of the other side. There are rules which EVERYONE agreed to when they became a member. These rules have changed for some who have joined a while ago, but still follow the same basic ideals.I'm not trying to push one side or the other, I'm just saying that if you take an un-bias look at this whole situation, it is "a mountain being made out of a mole hill." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
no one in particular Posted October 7, 2004 Author Report Share Posted October 7, 2004 I see that my post has some merit for debate. It's good that it wasn't taken down.Now, to business......Doug, understand that I too remember the 'good 'ol days'. Maybe not as well as you do, but nonetheless simpler times. In our memories we tend to forget the daily negatives and remember more the positives. What might have been good for some, wasn't good for the rest though. All in all, in good times and bad, we have progressed farther in our manners and open-mindedness than ever before...thanks partly to the internet. Understand when I said "be it someone from South Africa talking to someone in Alaska". Two different cultures, two different lives. Both have values and morals. In the information age, you have to tolerate what one does, but don't have to accept it as the truth. Same goes with the Cricket game. Having one to pass down judgement does not necessarily make it right in everyone's eyes. In the end, that's a dictatorship society....and an open forum has no place in one.Rules and law have been around since man started living in families (whenever THAT happened...lol). They are made to establish an order, but that does not make them absolute. Neither is the person enforcing them the absolute judge, jury and executioner. If it was, Police would be tossing millions into jail every year. As such, police have to be responsible in enforcing law legally. And they do answer for their actions if they falsely accuse a person.In the matter of this debate, all I'm saying is: A forum with regular members tend to get closer over time. That much is true wherever you go. When one has his views wiped away by a moderator, there must be a reason to go with it. But understand that a member, who has not caused problems before to a forum, has his view erased for no reason will become resentful towards the forum. A small explanation could be posted for the member. Otherwise, if a said member is new or has been a problem....common courtesy wouldn't be applied. Why would such courtesy be extended if courtesy wasn't used in the first place by a said member?All in all, it's all about toleration for free-talking forums and common courtesy for good, established members. Leniency? Actually...yes. But, only towards members who deserve it. Troublemakers, chaos-makers, trolls, etc.....there is no need for courtesy. But also remind the offender (if he is in good standing for the forum) of the rules of the forum. They are there to keep order, not to be broken. And continued violations being a more severe punishment.Thank god I'm not modding or Admin'ing anymore. It is a thankless job.That's all for now. Thanks for the responses. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andsome Posted October 8, 2004 Report Share Posted October 8, 2004 A lot of common sense so far, and it's nice to see that no one has become over heated. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scarecrow Man Posted October 8, 2004 Report Share Posted October 8, 2004 I agree with that. Gives me time to do some work.and homework :( Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cd108 Posted October 8, 2004 Report Share Posted October 8, 2004 create a "rant" topic with relaxed rules, so long as noone goes too mental and begins bleeping and blinding at someone leave it be, maybe even use it for feedback?(no ***'s please cd 108, I've amended them to "bleeping" if you don't mind :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Intratech Posted October 9, 2004 Report Share Posted October 9, 2004 Just a quick point folks, here in England we have a game called Cricket. People play by the rules. Now in the good old days if the Umpire (Moderator) gave a ruling, his decision was accepted as the final arbitrator, however unfair the decision was thought to be. The game was played by Gentlemen and players. I believe Ladies started to play the game. So folks lets all play the game by the rules and accept decisions whether we like them or not.Gees Doug, maybe that's why a person driving a car hitting 3 people and killing a few can get away with a slap on the wrist here in England. Maybe the judges are umpires and the victims and perpetrator are cricketers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doug Posted October 9, 2004 Report Share Posted October 9, 2004 Think you've missed my point. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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