Proportional representation? No thanks

[andsome]

The Germans use proportional representation in their elections, a system that the Lib Dem's want to foist onto the UK. Now they face weeks of uncertainty without a government at all, in an attempt to produce a botched up government. For all its warts I don't honestly think that you can beat the first past the post system.

Any thoughts?

German results

[catgate]

Under the world's present way of operating it does not matter what system is used, because the ego ridden powerseeks will always get in. What is needed is a new form of self government, by appointing honest, upright, citizen, with experience of life, onto an advisory/debating panel and then let the people of the country make the real decisions in referenda.

[andsome]

Under the world's present way of operating it does not matter what system is used, because the ego ridden powerseeks will always get in. What is needed is a new form of self government, by appointing honest, upright,  citizen, with experience of life, onto an advisory/debating panel and then let the people of the country make the real decisions in referenda.

The problem with that is, who would decide on the honest upright citizens to appoint, and further, who would decide on who the appointees of the honest upright citizens would be? Again, to decide all major decisions on a referendum would lead to all sorts of problems. Who would decide what should be decided by a referendum, and who would decide on the wording of the referendum? I think that the system we have at presents, with all its warts and problems is perhaps the best of a bad job.

[catgate]

with all its warts and problems is perhaps the best of a bad job.

So in effect you are saying that the human race, whilst being able to work out how to sent men into space and space vehicles to to far ends of the solar system, is incapable of working our a civilized and honest system of government that precludes graft and corruption?

I can only echo that silly catch phrase..." I don't believe it!"

I can imagine the current powerholders fighting tooth and claw to retain the status quo.

[Thos]

Under the world's present way of operating it does not matter what system is used, because the ego ridden powerseeks will always get in. What is needed is a new form of self government, by appointing honest, upright,  citizen, with experience of life, onto an advisory/debating panel and then let the people of the country make the real decisions in referenda.

Of course it does matter what system is used and my preference is certainly not with PR. Generally, though not always, first past the post produces positive results even though those results may not be to our liking.

BTW, I do not agree that all politicians are self-serving, dishonest and all the other epithets heaped upon them. It is perfectly honourable to enter politics as a career with an aim to do the best for yourself as well as to aim to do the best for your country. Some, as in all walks of life, fall by the wayside but constituency surgeries up and down the country contain plenty of honest people trying to help their constituents whether those constituents voted for them or not. Have fun with them by all means, but pay tribute sometimes to their efforts.

Thos. :)

[andsome]

Under the world's present way of operating it does not matter what system is used, because the ego ridden powerseeks will always get in. What is needed is a new form of self government, by appointing honest, upright,  citizen, with experience of life, onto an advisory/debating panel and then let the people of the country make the real decisions in referenda.

Of course it does matter what system is used and my preference is certainly not with PR. Generally, though not always, first past the post produces positive results even though those results may not be to our liking.

BTW, I do not agree that all politicians are self-serving, dishonest and all the other epithets heaped upon them. It is perfectly honourable to enter politics as a career with an aim to do the best for yourself as well as to aim to do the best for your country. Some, as in all walks of life, fall by the wayside but constituency surgeries up and down the country contain plenty of honest people trying to help their constituents whether those constituents voted for them or not. Have fun with them by all means, but pay tribute sometimes to their efforts.

Thos. :)

We frequently rubbish B'liar and his cronies on here, more often than not with good cause. I would agree however that there are a few decent hard working politicians. We are VERY lucky with our MP. He has one of the best attendance records in the house, and is never slow to fight for the interests of his constituency members. First past the post does not always produce a true majority government, in that frequently the percentage vote obtained by the winners may be under 50%. What it does mean however is that we do not end up with all the horse trading that can happen with PR. What will probably happen now in Germany, is that one or another of the larger parties will form a coalition with several small way out groups in return for holding back on much needed legislation, and agreeing to pass one or two silly bits of legislation in order to stay in power.

[andsome]

with all its warts and problems is perhaps the best of a bad job.

So in effect you are saying that the human race, whilst being able to work out how to sent men into space and space vehicles to to far ends of the solar system, is incapable of working our a civilized and honest system of government that precludes graft and corruption?

I can only echo that silly catch phrase..." I don't believe it!"

I can imagine the current powerholders fighting tooth and claw to retain the status quo.

As I asked, who would appoint all the worthies under your system, and who would appoint the appointees? Can you imagine also the voter fatigue after referendum upon referendum an every major decision. People would just give up, and heaven alone knows what the cost would be.

[Thos]

We frequently rubbish B'liar and his cronies on here, more often than not with good cause.  I would agree however that there are a few decent hard working politicians.  We are VERY lucky with our MP.  He has one of the best attendance records in the house, and is never slow to fight for the interests of his constituency members.  First past the post does not always produce a true majority government, in that frequently  the percentage vote obtained by the winners may be under 50%.  What it does mean however is that we do not end up with all the horse trading that can happen with PR.  What will probably happen now in Germany, is that one or another of the larger parties will form a coalition with several small way out groups in return for holding back on much needed legislation, and agreeing to pass one or two silly bits of legislation in order to stay in power.

Yes. I think your MP is probably typical of many. For my part I object to an MP who changes his/her party, often in mid-term and also often hoping to further his/her career. We have such a man and I would never vote for him in a million years. Another name for a deserter is a rat, which is a fair description.

Thos.

[rong]

Are they not allowed to change their minds like the rest of us? Also if you have a hung Parliament then surely they have to think about others, not just themselves for a change. I think the last government got in with around 25% of the vote, which is never right.

[Belatucadrus]

Proportional representation got porn queen Cicciolina into the Italian parliament, just think what it could do for us, Jordan in the house of commons.

:scared:

[Thos]

Are they not allowed to change their minds like the rest of us? Also if you have a hung Parliament then surely they have to think about others, not just themselves for a change. I think the last government got in with around 25% of the vote, which is never right.

Certainly they are allowed to revise their opinions. BUT, they were originally elected by constituents on the basis of their original opinions and so they should resign and offer themselves up for election based on their revised views. Anything other is a betrayal.

I am not sure what you are suggesting in your final sentence. That a government should be elected based on it's total vote? With the government deciding on it's own members? Or is it back to PR with all of its problems?

Thos.

[dadyassa]

Proportional representation got porn queen Cicciolina into the Italian parliament, just think what it could do for us, Jordan in the house of commons.

:scared:

Could certainly liven it up a bit :lol:

[andsome]

I do like big boobs

[Belatucadrus]

I do like big boobs

Tony and Gordon ?

[catgate]

The whole thing is a sham. Along comes "your prospective MP". He tells you that he will represent your interests in "the House", and fight for your rights etc. He does not come amongst you and find out what those interests are, prior to being "selected", by you, as your prospective MP. This selection is done by the local party, from a list of two sent down from party headquarters. In '98 only 1.9% of voters were party members (current figures not to hand), and so even had the list not been "sent down" your prospective member would have been chosen by no more than 0.64% of the consituency's voters (asuming equal spread of members of each party). That's how much he represent you. The "winner" is actually elected purely on the colour of his rosette, because he is the representative of the party with the "best" wild pre-election promises, and he represents the party least disliked following the outpourings of nonsense called Party Political Broadcasts, coupled with safe seat diehardism.

When he gets to "the House" his view is that since you voted for him you must agree with his principles, which are, ensuring his own well being, by following the party line After all, they sent his name down on that list, and he wants not only to remain on the gravy train as long as possible, but eventually to drive it.

There are some M.P.s who appear to do a good job. This is inevitable beacause there are so many who do such a diabolically bad job that even apathy looks good and feigned interest is miraculous.

I can not recall the voter ever being asked for his suggestions on how the country should be run. On what the country's "foreign policy" should be. On how many aliens should be allowed into the country, illegally or otherwise. On how much of our money should be sent overseas to prop up corrupt dictatorships etc. Yet the politicians claim to be representing us.

I've gone on long enough ("too long" do I hear?). Go look up "politics" in Roget's Thesaurus....fascinating.

[catgate]

Tony and Gordon ?

Wonderful. :D

[andsome]

I do like big boobs

Tony and Gordon ?

BRILLIANT!

[andsome]

The whole thing is a sham. Along comes "your prospective MP". He tells you that he will represent your interests in "the House", and fight for your rights etc. He does not come amongst you and find out what those interests are, prior to being "selected", by you, as your prospective MP. This selection is done by the local party, from a list of two sent down from party headquarters. In '98 only 1.9% of voters were party members (current figures not to hand), and so even had the list not been "sent down" your prospective member would have been chosen by no more than 0.64% of the consituency's voters (asuming equal spread of members of each party). That's how much he represent you. The "winner" is actually elected purely on the colour of his rosette, because he is the representative of the party with the "best" wild pre-election promises, and he represents the party least disliked following the outpourings of nonsense called Party Political Broadcasts, coupled with safe seat diehardism.

When he gets to "the House" his view is that since you voted for him you must agree with his principles, which are, ensuring his own well being, by following the party line After all, they sent his name down on that list, and he wants not only to remain on the gravy train as long as possible, but eventually to drive it.

There are some M.P.s who appear to do a good job. This is inevitable beacause there are so many who do such a diabolically bad job that even apathy looks good and feigned interest is miraculous.

I can not recall the voter ever being asked for his suggestions on how the country should be run. On what the country's "foreign policy" should be. On how many aliens should be allowed into the country, illegally or otherwise. On how much of our money should be sent overseas to prop up corrupt dictatorships etc. Yet the politicians claim to be representing us.

I've gone on long enough ("too long" do I hear?). Go look up "politics" in Roget's Thesaurus....fascinating.

As I have already pointed out, your alternative is just NOT practical. We have to have some kind of system, warts and all. Of course the parties select who they wish to run for election in each area. The local Tory party, Lib Dem Party or Labour party etc are hardly likely to knock every door in every constituency to ask everyones opinion. You are always free to stand in your constituency yourself, in fact that was done very successfully in Kidderminster a couple of elections ago, when a doctor was elected as an independent to oppose the shutting down of the local hospital. George Galloway and Kilroy Silk both formed new parties, as anyone is free to do. Have a go, who knows you may end up as one of the few honest politicians in Parliament.

[Belatucadrus]

You are always free to stand in your constituency yourself, in fact that was done very successfully in Kidderminster a couple of elections ago, when a doctor was elected as an independent to oppose the shutting down of the local hospital. George Galloway and Kilroy Silk both formed new parties, as anyone is free to do. Have a go, who knows you may end up as one of the few honest politicians in Parliament.

Dr Taylor was re-elected at the recent elections. Wyre Forest rejection of main line party politics remains in place. A protest vote that isn't a flash in the pan Health concern website

[andsome]

You are always free to stand in your constituency yourself, in fact that was done very successfully in Kidderminster a couple of elections ago, when a doctor was elected as an independent to oppose the shutting down of the local hospital. George Galloway and Kilroy Silk both formed new parties, as anyone is free to do. Have a go, who knows you may end up as one of the few honest politicians in Parliament.

Dr Taylor was re-elected at the recent elections. Wyre Forest rejection of main line party politics remains in place. A protest vote that isn't a flash in the pan Health concern website

It did my heart good to see him elected.