More trouble for NHS managers

[andsome]

A short while ago, I and several others were berated on here for daring to say that the NHS was top heavy with poor quality managers, and that many billions of pounds were not going to patient care, but in salaries and pensions etc for these people. Now our beloved government is to spend even more on sorting out these inefficiencies due to mounting colossal losses by some trusts.

Click here.

Meantime there are yet more reports of staff shortages, while at the same time more wards and small hospitals are closing down, and staff facing redundancy.

Click here.

Click here as well

and here

Here also

There are DOZENS more examples. There is no doubt that a real crises now exists. Spending has rocketed, but where has it all gone?

[-pops-]

The crises will get worse.

My son is sick to the back teeth with being ordered what to do and told how his hospital department is run by a collection of "managers" who can hardly rub up a GCSE between them. Worse is that these parasites earn far more than he does.

He is shortly to tell these people where they can stick their job (and themselves) and is setting up in full time private practice.

It's quite sad really. He worked in Toronto for some years and much enjoyed it there. He came back to England out of concern for his mother and myself after I was quite ill a few years ago. He's reluctant to go back to Canada as his girls are now settled at school here so, for his peace of mind, the only thing is to set up in partnership with some colleagues in London and at a private hospital near here.

[andsome]

I don't blame him one bit.

[Thos]

A short while ago, I and several others were berated on here for daring to say that the NHS was top heavy with poor quality managers, and that many billions of pounds were not going to patient care, but in salaries and pensions etc for these people. Spending has rocketed, but where has it all gone?

I suspect that your reference to being "berated" referred to my contributions on this subject. I would like to think that you are able also to accept a wider picture without the wholesale condemnation you apply.

Of course there are problems but in fairness there is a bigger scope to this. There are vastly more operations being performed than ever before; there are more nurses, more doctors, more consultants and more technicians. Waiting list have been reduced. This is where the vast bulk of the money has gone.

Since 1997 an NHS, underfunded for years, has received proper funding and this has enabled the recruitment of 10,000 more consultants, 80,000 more nurses, 30,000 more technicians, therapists etc.

If this is berating you, I am sorry. I prefer to think that it goes some way towards providing a more balanced look.

Thos.

[catgate]

Since 1997 an NHS, underfunded for years, has received proper funding and this has enabled the recruitment of 10,000 more consultants, 80,000 more nurses, 30,000 more technicians, therapists etc.

I suspect that the number of consultants is going to increase exponentially very shortly. Sadly they will be "management" consultant, and they generally work on the princpal of creating more work (for themselves and their friends) by way of surveys, test schemes etc. prior to being paid off and shown the door.

[andsome]

Since 1997 an NHS, underfunded for years, has received proper funding and this has enabled the recruitment of 10,000 more consultants, 80,000 more nurses, 30,000 more technicians, therapists etc.

I suspect that the number of consultants is going to increase exponentially very shortly. Sadly they will be "management" consultant, and they generally work on the princpal of creating more work (for themselves and their friends) by way of surveys, test schemes etc. prior to being paid off and shown the door.

Very true.

[andsome]

NHS dental care is being rapidly phased out. When my daughter moved from Oxford to Shrewsbury two and half years ago, she was pregnant, and as such entitled to free dental care on the NHS. My granddaughter at that time was experiencing severe dental problems. It was totally impossible to get the NHS care that they were entitled to, despite daily visits by my daughter to the nearest Dentist. Finally a sympathetic staff member gave my daughter the senior dentists home phone number. She started to phone him at home every night, and eventually got the care to which she and my granddaughter were entitled.

How many of the new nurses are imported from abroad and have poor English? How many consultants like pops son are leaving the NHS? How many hospitals in your area have closed? We have one which has already gone well before it's replacement will be ready, and another small cottage hospital, given to the community many years ago by the miners, is shortly to be closed and fifty houses crammed onto the site. The new hospital which is not yet ready will have considerably less geriatric care beds than the one which is being closed. What is to happen to those people. The reason that I started this topic is because of what I saw on the television about some NHS trusts forcing families to sell the family home to pay for care for their elderly parents.

[catgate]

The simple truth of the matter is this. If the income of we humble peasant folk is insufficient for us to afford good medical care (pre NHS) how can we be expected to afford it through taxation when vast quantities of these tax deductions are wasted on other things (like political experimentation and control).

"Oh", the cry will go up, "companies and the rich and famous are taxed to provide the shortfall." Enter stage left a certain Mr Mills, and his company of prestdigitationists, closely followed by hoards of people thrown out of employment by companies either collapsing or outsourcing.

Mr Macawber was very near the truth, and the free lunch is still only available in the Westminster trough.

[Thos]

NHS dental care is being rapidly phased out. When my daughter moved from Oxford to Shrewsbury two and half years ago, she was pregnant, and as such entitled to free dental care on the NHS. My granddaughter at that time was experiencing severe dental problems. It was totally impossible to get the NHS care that they were entitled to, despite daily visits by my daughter to the nearest Dentist. Finally a sympathetic staff member gave my daughter the senior dentists home phone number. She started to phone him at home every night, and eventually got the care to which she and my granddaughter were entitled.

How many of the new nurses are imported from abroad and have poor English? How many consultants like pops son are leaving the NHS? How many hospitals in your area have closed? We have one which has already gone well before it's replacement will be ready, and another small cottage hospital, given to the community many years ago by the miners, is shortly to be closed and fifty houses crammed onto the site. The new hospital which is not yet ready will have considerably less geriatric care beds than the one which is being closed. What is to happen to those people. The reason that I started this topic is because of what I saw on the television about some NHS trusts forcing families to sell the family home to pay for care for their elderly parents.

Yes, the dental services are in disarray. Dentists get more money by signing up people to insurance schemes which, I believe, offer poor value. They feel they are under-remunerated for their NHS work and more and more are only treating private patients. Even the new contracts starting in April 2006 are being denigrated before being given a chance. You cannot force dentists into the NHS. However, even here in the south-east, reputedly the worst area for NHS dentistry it is still possible to find an NHS dentist. I recently had to do so and was readily accepted.

On the second paragraph, what a shame the nurses are imported. Ban them all, I say. :devil: I don't think so.

I do not wish to comment on the situation regarding pops' son, just as I cannot comment on your local hospital situation except that all plans are or should be scrutinised for all effects on the local community.

The costs of care for the elderly is an area which has got to be looked at and a balance struck between who pays, those who have money or central government. That is a very contentious issue.

Thos.

The simple truth of the matter is this. If the income of we humble peasant folk is insufficient for us to afford good medical care (pre NHS) how can we be expected to afford it through taxation when vast quantities of these tax deductions are wasted on other things (like political experimentation and control).

"Oh", the cry will go up, "companies and the rich and famous are taxed to provide the shortfall." Enter stage left a certain Mr Mills, and his company of prestdigitationists, closely followed by hoards of people thrown out of employment by companies either collapsing or outsourcing.

Mr Macawber was very near the truth, and the free lunch is still only available in the Westminster trough.

The system is not perfect, catgate, far from it. However raising money through taxation and distributing it through services is universal in pretty well all methods of 'ocracies, all of which raise their Mr Mills and worse.

Thos.

[djohn]

I have been with my current dentist for the past 6 years since moving over to Norwich. I have not had to pay for dental treatment due to my disability and benefits I receive for same. This morning I received a letter to inform me that the practice is going private from April 1.

My pegs are in decent condition and over the past 6 years all I've required is a clean & polish every six months. Due to this light treatment Both of us have been accessed as needing a private denplan of £12 per month each.

This will entitle us to remain on the books and two cleans each year. So, I have gone from paying nothing to paying £24 per month and when I phoned to see if this new "Private" denplan covered me for any work that might need doing, I was informed it would not, and fillings would be from £28 to £96 each, Crowns from £230 each depending on just how much work needs doing. :(

[catgate]

I can remember when it was refered to as a "Road Fund Licence". That was what it was until some PM (old Winston I believe) decided to do a 'Brown' on it and used what he extracted out of it for other purposes, leaving the existing tax in place. It still carried the old name for years until the charade was played out. We are still paying it today but how much of it goes on roads?

Move to NHS contributions, NI contributions and general tax

Our little cherub and his ragamuffin band of carpet baggers are hell bent on getting everyone onto private health schemes, private dental schemes and private pensions. What are they planning to do with the money they will continue to take, in taxes, that currently nearly fund some of these services. More to the point where do they expect people to get the extra money from....are we to employ an army of Mr Mills and his friends for tax avoidance??

[r4may]

If they cut out most of the managers and Government 'Guidelines' - interference and concentrated of Heath issues not cosmetic issues there could be a good basic heath care for all.

Also if Brown was not so greedy and stop taxing so heavily only to waste the money on 'Jollies' for his cronies. We could all enjoy decent health care (even part self funded) and reasonable Pensions, private or otherwise.

[andsome]

More examples of overpaid managers messing things up.

CLICK HERE.

[-pops-]

Djohn,

Before having heart surgery in 1999, I was told that it would be best for me to have all teeth removed because of the possibility of bacterial endocarditis. I agreed to this on the proviso that I didn't have to go around for ages with a toothless mouth. A set of "immediate dentures" was made and everything went as it should.

After I had recovered, I saw that my new pegs were a bit NHS (or Thatcher tombstone) like so I went to a (private) cosmetic dentist and had some more realistic ones made. These cost but were worth it. I am now told, despite already being a private patient, that I will have to take out a Denplan policy in order to continue to be able to see the dentist (note that I have no real teeth to care for) and that new dentures are not included in the Denplan cover.

[andsome]

We are lucky in that our local dentist still takes NHS patients. Even so it is hardly a service that you would have expected a few years ago, before this lot got their hands on it. I forget the exact price for a free checkup, but it is in the teens pounds. A filling is FROM £85. My wife had a great deal of trouble with her teeth, and was given an estimate of £3500 PLUS. The dentist suggested that if she was prepared for the work to be spread out over a couple of years or so, and was happy for it to be done by students under supervision, she would give her a note to take to Birmingham Dental Hospital. The work was VERY slow and painstaking and took well over two years, with monthly visits. It was well worth the trouble in the end, but should we have to do this after all the money we have paid in over the years?

[Thos]

have expected a few years ago, before this lot got their hands on it.

Aren't you attributing the blame wrongly here? In spite of everything, dentists see more money being made for themselves through private practice including the insurance schemes djohn and pops spoke of. And so dentists, even newly qualified ones are tending to do a few years NHS to set themselves up in practice and then "going private". Some, I am glad to say, still work through the NHS as well as taking private patients.

djohn

The same thing has happened to me four times over the past 5 or six years, most recently last autumn. I wrote to the local Primary Care Trust and they sent me a list of dentists still taking new NHS patients. Oddly enough each new one has been closer to my home, the present one being within a 10 minute walk and it suits me fine. I was there half an hour ago having had an ache in my upper jaw; I have an appointment for 10 am tomorrow for it to be looked at.

(I wondered what was causing the ache, I suspect she may well say it is andsome!) :)

Thos.

[andsome]

You have missed my point. Despite being on a NHS Dentists list, the cost of treatment is beyond the means of some people. I still say that a lot of the money being collected in the name of the NHS is being wasted on grossly inefficient management. Here is yet another government waste of money which could be spent on treating people. CLICK HERE.

[Thos]

You have missed my point.

I pinpointed your point which was the one I was responding to.

Thos.

[andsome]

My point is that a few years ago everyone coulg get dental treatment on the NHS. Now they can't. I wonder why this is. Most doctors still take NHS patients. Eye tests are available on the NHS, and very cheap lenses and frames are still availble on the NHS, though most people prefer to pay extra for better looking specs. My daughter who was entitled because of her pregnancy, and my granddaughter who was entitled because of he age, could not get free dental treatment, or even subsidised treatment. The NHS is getting more and more privatised under this government than ever before. Those that manage things seem to me to be getting more and more inefficient.

[Thos]

My daughter who was entitled because of her pregnancy, and my granddaughter who was entitled because of he age, could not get free dental treatment, or even subsidised treatment. The NHS is getting more and more privatised under this government than ever before. Those that manage things seem to me to be getting more and more inefficient.

Forgive me , but I don't think this is true, unless you mean that they could not get dental treatment nearby because the dentists only accept private patients. Even then, the local primary care trusts have arrangements to help.

I must reiterate. Dentists are going where the money is......private insurance schemes and it is not a recent phenomenon as you imply.

Thos.

[djohn]

Hello pops. I wonder if the "Denplan" will cover you to have your Gums scraped and polished twice a year? :lol:

[r4may]

My daughter who was entitled because of her pregnancy, and my granddaughter who was entitled because of he age, could not get free dental treatment, or even subsidised treatment. The NHS is getting more and more privatised under this government than ever before. Those that manage things seem to me to be getting more and more inefficient.

Forgive me , but I don't think this is true, unless you mean that they could not get dental treatment nearby because the dentists only accept private patients. Even then, the local primary care trusts have arrangements to help.

I must reiterate. Dentists are going where the money is......private insurance schemes and it is not a recent phenomenon as you imply.

Thos.

This has been happening for years so it's not new but it has just got worse.Dentists are doing it to make the most money, and the cost appears to be out of all proportion the the actual work done.

It is cheaper to get your car maintained and/or repaired than your teeth.

[andsome]

Yet more evidence of what poor managers have done are are still doing to the NHS.

Look here

[catgate]

The latest issue of Private Eye, which normally is extremely accurate, has several atricles (and one or two articles) illustrating the fact that the frequent changing of policy, and targets, is the major cause of monetary chaos, and those hospitals/trusts that have had the "benefit" of extremely expensive hit squads of management consultants, have been changed from serious failure to disastrous failure.

[AlanHo]

It is cheaper to get your car maintained and/or repaired than your teeth.

I should get off down to Halfords Auto Centre then.