Who has the worst prison conditions?

[-pops-]

The bronze plaque at the base of a statue on Ellis Island, New York:

Not like the brazen giant of Greek fame,

with conquering limbs astride from land to land;

Here at our sea-washed, sunset gates shall stand

a mighty woman with a torch, whose flame

is the imprisoned lightning, and her name

Mother of Exiles. From her beacon-hand

Glows world-wide welcome; her mild eyes command

The air-bridged harbor that twin cities frame,

"Keep, ancient lands, your storied pomp!" cries she

with silent lips. "Give me your tired, your poor,

Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,

The wretched refuse of your teeming shore,

Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me,

I lift my lamp beside the golden door!"

"We will not forget that Liberty has here made her home; nor shall her chosen altar be neglected". As President Grover Cleveland, accepting the Statue on behalf of the United States, said in part on October 28th, 1886"

A certain bitterness comes into my mouth when I recall the way that foreign nationals are treated, including me and even before 9/11, by immigration at the American frontier.

I digress, apologies.

[ɹəuəllıʍ ʇɐb]

More interesting would be who has the BEST prison conditions?

And are they justified?

Thos.

I can recommend the Swiss jails, where I spent one week this past summer: http://www.jailhotel.com/ :)

[andsome]

That's a novel idea.

[Thos]

More interesting would be who has the BEST prison conditions?

And are they justified?

Thos.

I can recommend the Swiss jails, where I spent one week this past summer: http://www.jailhotel.com/ :)

That looks great.

Thos.

A certain bitterness comes into my mouth when I recall the way that foreign nationals are treated, including me and even before 9/11, by immigration at the American frontier.

I digress, apologies.

To even up the balance a little. My wife and I have been many times to the USA (25 to 30) and never once have we experienced anything but courtesy and pleasantries at entry or indeed at exit. Sometimes there has been a queue but that was dealt with smoothly and efficiently. All bar one visit was pre 9/11, I admit.

Thos.

[-pops-]

I have visited the USA many times, mainly on business and almost invariably I have been treated very poorly by immigration officials.

These people are a breed apart and do not represent the normal American population, that I know and respect, at all.

I don't think my treatment at immigration was particularly exceptional as I've had similar experiences related to me a number of times.

[Thos]

Isn't it odd?

We shall just have to agree to disagree.

Thos.

[Tankus]

Maybe pops looks a bit "shifty "

[andsome]

Maybe pops looks a bit "shifty "

LIKE IT :D

[Tankus]

dw

The intent of this thread was to show that the prisoners at Guantanomo Bay (cool ocean breezes, meals better than the US troops in Iraq see, a copy of the Koran, kneeling pads, a directional arrow in each cell pointing toward Mecca, conditions better than they ever saw at home) are treated far more civilized than prisoners in France or 3rd world counties.

blimey ... Its really ... a Butlins camp .!..Hi di bloody hi ....... sign me up now ... Ive got a beard

[-pops-]

Maybe pops looks a bit "shifty "

I began to wonder that myself but then I thought that my treatment in the other countries I visit was fairly acceptable so I put it down the the US immigration service.

I should say that I don't have any problems with any other members of US officialdom that I've been in contact with or, indeed, any other Americans - a number of whom I class as friends.

[deuces wild]

I have visited the USA many times, mainly on business and almost invariably I have been treated very poorly by immigration officials.

These people are a breed apart and do not represent the normal American population, that I know and respect, at all.

I don't think my treatment at immigration was particularly exceptional as I've had similar experiences related to me a number of times.

Sorry to hear about the problems you had.

What sort of problems did you encounter pre 9-11 and then post 9-11?

[ɹəuəllıʍ ʇɐb]

On my last trip to the U.S. of A. (and I don't mean latest, but last), which was just before 2001-09-11, I was held and interrogated by immigration for four hours. I was forbidden to use my cell phone to alert my company people who were waiting at the destination airport.

At the end of the interrogation - where I was asked about past convictions, prison time(s), sexual habits, membership of communist party or terrorist organizations - they seemed satisfied, and I thought I could go now. No, I was fingerprinted (with black ink), then photographed, then fingerprinted one more time.

Next I was led to another room where a police officer and a dog were waiting. There I was asked to undress. And no, they did not take "no" for an answer. After this I was led yet to another room, where they asked me to pack my luggage - which they had completely unpacked and strewn all over the floor.

At no time I was given any explanation. I remained calm during the entire process, as I know you don't get fresh with immigration officials. No, they were not courteous or pleasant at any time.

After I finished packing I was escorted back to the same plane I had come with, and sent back to Japan! The guy who escorted me to the plane was actually friendly - a Chinese American. I asked him what I was going to tell my company. He said "Just tell them immigration screwed up. We do that all the time."

When I was back in Japan my boss called me and asked what happened. He got a call from the head office, asking were I was. So he called American Airlines. They replied that I had to be sent back because I was "a convicted criminal".

Thank you, US immigration - nice going!

[dadyassa]

Maybe pops looks a bit "shifty "

He must be in the same class as my mother in law, she always gets pulled at customs :lol: :lol:

Perhaps the drug runners use grannies now :lol:

[-pops-]

Pat's narration seems so very familiar. Had all of that but not necessarily on the one visit.

I would NEVER now go to the USA voluntarily. The only reason I continued going previously was that my job required it.

As Pat also intimated: "immigration screwed up. We do that all the time."

Sorry, Deuces but that's how things are in your country. As a resident there, no doubt with a US passport, you won't see this side of your country's officiousness.

I would like to remind readers again of the inscription at the bottom of the "Statue of Liberty" and the statement from a certain president at the time it was inaugurated which I quoted earlier in the thread. Makes it all seem a bit hollow, somehow.

[deuces wild]

Pat, did you file a formal complaint based on what was done to you?

I certainly understand why you and pops do not want to return.

[-pops-]

If I can step in on the question you asked Pat, I filed complaints several times to the US Embassy in London. The only response I had was that my communication had been referred to the US Department of Immigration for consideration.

I might add as well that my "son in law" is an airline captain who, at one time, did the Atlantic run, mainly Heathrow to Newark. In his latter days of this he would stay airside in Newark because he refused to tolerate the intimidation that foreign airline staff were sometimes subjected to by the immigration department if they tried to step on to Americal soil. Complaints to that department brought no joy and his employers at the time (a VERY large airline) could do nothing. He now does Heathrow to several airports in the Far East, Australia and New Zealand and he says he couldn't be treated any better anywhere.

[Tankus]

Interesting to see if tourist numbers are down ...? long term

perhaps that would be a better indication of disrespectful treatment ..than one off... experiences

[ɹəuəllıʍ ʇɐb]

Pat, did you file a formal complaint based on what was done to you?

I certainly understand why you and pops do not want to return.

I do not think that complaints would have done any good. I was told during my detention that "you do not have any rights in this country", and I think that sums it about up.

I am about halfway through the 5th passport in my life, which indicates that I have traveled my fair share. Never have I been treated disrespectfully anywhere - not in Europe, not in Africa, not in the Middle East, not in Asia, not in Australia.

I have told my company that I will quit my job if they ever try to send me there again.

[Thos]

With respect, Pat, was there any reason why (presumably) their computer should have shown your name up as "undesirable"

And if, unjustifiably, you are tagged as "a convicted criminal" you have very good reason to complain strongly to their Embassy and your Government even if you never go near the States again.

Thos.