Government... do we really need it?

[Irene]

There's a lot of it about.

Like it. :D

You've had ostrich steaks then? :D

[catgate]

There's a lot of it about.

And a significant quantity of it is in Westminster.

[Irene]

There's a lot of it about.

And a significant quantity of it is in Westminster.

Ostrich steaks??, Sainsburys didn't have any today.

[Panarchy]

Um guys... there was a link here... linking to an offsite page... which had some real interesting info... can someone tell me what it is? Please?

[catgate]

Um guys... there was a link here... linking to an offsite page... which had some real interesting info... can someone tell me what it is? Please?

It looks as though it was in one of my "pearls of wisdom" but I haven't got the foggiest.

[Panarchy]

I am not very happy with the politicians who run the country, but I am too idle to offer my help. It's useless saying that you are against government. If we don't elect a government, who will run things? Referendums are not on for every little decision that has to be made. Who will organise them, who will adjudicate over the results? Who is going to run the services, organise road building, education, health etc etc? Things are not all that we would like, but unless someone runs things, what do we do, descend into complete anarchy? Panarcy, if you are completely against government and taxes as you declare, why don't you run a nationwide campaign and drum up support for you to run everything? Where are you going to get the money to do all this without taxes, and how are you going to run things without an infrastructure? As I have said many times before, I hate our present government, and think that too much of our tax is wasted by them, but unless I am prepared to take over, then I must just put up with it, and so must you. You could of course emigrate to a country run by religious zealots, and see if that suits you better than an elected government.

Research Panarchy & Anarchy.

Research Archipeligoes of Educational Chaos (which a good friend of mine wrote)

And also, TAX IS THEFT!

Please reply,

Panarchy

[andsome]

No one enjoys paying tax. However, how else would you suggest that things like roads, transport, schools, health, street lighting, rubbish collection and a thousand other items are paid for? Very few of us like various things about how the country is run, depending on your views. You made it clear previously that you don't like government. So, how else are things going to be run, and who will run them? Do you want complete and utter anarchy and lawlessness? There are those who suggest that EVERYTHING is decided by referendum. I would ask you, who is to organise the referendums on every topic, who will decide the wording, who will decide when a referendum is needed, who will enforce the result, and who will pay for it without taxes. You and your friends really need to think much more carefully. We have had many interesting discussions on here as to how things are run, and we have to agree to differ, but we ALL have to agree on one thing, and that is that things will not run themselves, and certainly not free of charge. You have not answered any of these questions. Why not try my suggestion of emigrating to a country run by dictatorial religious zealots? One snag that, you would still have to pay tax to run the torture chambers etc.

THINK very carefully before you answer.

[catgate]

However, how else would you suggest that things like roads, transport, schools, health, street lighting, rubbish collection and a thousand other items are paid for?

By paying for them through "tax" we are paying far more than we would do if we paid for them privately. Further more Tax gives "our leaders" the opportunity to play god and cream off a huge portion of our taxes to use for power buying purposes.

Did You authorise Gordon Brown to lend £700 of you money to Northern Rock??? I didn't but yet every person in the country is up to the PFIs in Northern rock by the same amount.

If you get out a calculator and do some serious arithmetic you will find well over 80% of your taxes are wasted. You see no return on them. You could pay your way privately and still have enough left for a new set of bowls.

[andsome]

However, how else would you suggest that things like roads, transport, schools, health, street lighting, rubbish collection and a thousand other items are paid for?

By paying for them through "tax" we are paying far more than we would do if we paid for them privately. Further more Tax gives "our leaders" the opportunity to play god and cream off a huge portion of our taxes to use for power buying purposes.

Did You authorise Gordon Brown to lend £700 of you money to Northern Rock??? I didn't but yet every person in the country is up to the PFIs in Northern rock by the same amount.

If you get out a calculator and do some serious arithmetic you will find well over 80% of your taxes are wasted. You see no return on them. You could pay your way privately and still have enough left for a new set of bowls.

By paying into a tax fund we all get help when it is needed. Some people are lucky enough not to need much in the way of medical help etc, others are not. I need a tablet now and then for migraine which costs £7 each. Others need treatments which would cost more than they could earn in years, and would not be covered by private insurance unless they paid extremely high insurance costs. It has always been my argument that much of our tax money is wasted, but I for one am not prepared to spend vast amounts of time and money rallying the country to create an alternative system. It is NOT possible, or you would have done it yourself many years ago. :lol:

[catgate]

I need a tablet now and then for migraine which costs £7 each.

Do you known what that would have cost had the drug companies not known that there was a bottomless pit of funding available?

...but I for one am not prepared to spend vast amounts of time and money rallying the country to create an alternative system. It is NOT possible, or you would have done it yourself many years ago.

You are not on your own in this view. Sadly, if this form of 'co-operation' had held sway aeons ago, we would still all be living in caves.

There is without doubt a strong growing ground swell of opinion that is questioning the system, and without doubt it will be changed. If for no other reason than the world can see the emperor is starkers. To simply roll over and say "I don't like it... but I'm alright", will not do when the time eventually comes. The mess that we dwell in has been created by greed and inexperience, and the older the head the more experience it should have. I know it is difficult to believe but YOUR COUNTRY NEEDS YOU.

[andsome]

There's the answer then, you and Panarchy need to get busy and reorganise things. I feel sure that this groundswell will soon back you both up, and there will be plenty of people willing to get stuck in free of charge of course, as there will be no tax system. You both obviously think that your ideas are workable. :lol: :lol:

[deuces wild]

Is government all it's cracked up to be? THey steal from us, they brake there own rules... let's get rid of them. THe power is in the masses.

For more info, try mises.org and lewrockwell.com

Do we need government? Absolutely. A country could not operate with one and the land would be ruled by anarchy.

Do we need bloated government trying to control *all* aspects of our lives? Absolutely not.

[andsome]

Is government all it's cracked up to be? THey steal from us, they brake there own rules... let's get rid of them. THe power is in the masses.

For more info, try mises.org and lewrockwell.com

Do we need government? Absolutely. A country could not operate with one and the land would be ruled by anarchy.

Do we need bloated government trying to control *all* aspects of our lives? Absolutely not.

Exactly what I have been trying to put across. We may strongly dislike the individuals in our governments, but the thought of the anarchy that would reign if everyone was left entirely to their own devices fills me with dread. So far no one has answered my questions regarding WHO would organise everything? OK, the existing lot may not make a very good effort at times, but I challenge all those who say we do not need tax or government to come up with a viable and sensible alternative. :D

[deuces wild]

We would have no infrastructure, no police, no fire dept., no military.....and on and on and on. We would become less than 3rd world.

[andsome]

We would have no infrastructure, no police, no fire dept., no military.....and on and on and on. We would become less than 3rd world.

We would have nothing. Just Catgate and Panarchy running round in ever decreasing circles trying to get things running. All free of charge of course with no tax money coming in. :lol:

[deuces wild]

They both must have skipped out on all their Civics and Government classes in High School.. B)

[andsome]

They both must have skipped out on all their Civics and Government classes in High School.. B)

I think Panarchy is still at school, learning how to be an anarchist. :D

[catgate]

So far no one has answered my questions regarding WHO would organise everything?

Oh yes, the answer is there in http://www.angelfire.com/realm3/accord. However you did not read it all through and condemned it without understanding it.

The organisation would be done by the Civil Service just as it is today. (Well not just as it is today, or there would be blood flowing in Whitehall.) The difference would be that the reorganised and slimmed Civil Service would be there to do the will of the people not the will of the politicians. They would be controlled by, and responsible to, those sitting in the new style unelected non party Parliament (yes...that one that won't work) composed of REAL people with age and experience behind them, and no incentive to spin,cheat or lie.

[andsome]

Who will decide who the unelected members are? Who will organise their non election? Why haven't you organised this yet, or will Mr Nobody do it? How will these non elected parliamentarians be paid and how much. How will they be paid if tax is considered to be theft? If they will be doing the will of the people, how will they know what that will is? Who is to prevent fights breaking out as they argue what the will of the people is, if there is no tax to pay police to stop these fights? If this is such a grand idea, why aren't the population clamouring for it? It's just a pie in the sky idea not thought through. I can just imagine the utter chaos trying to run a country on referendums. I can just imagine the response of the average beer swiller with little or no ability to spell his name responding to a call to sit in this non elected house and govern the country. I can just imagine the ruch to participate. :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

[catgate]

I take it that in the twenty minutes between my post with the URL in it, and your reply, you have been to that site and read and understood all of the proposal contained therein.

No, I thought not, Otherwise you would have had no need to ask your questions, which are fully taken care of within the article.

You would also have read and understood just why I have not yet overturned the system on my own, and why it would take just a few more than Panarchy and I "running around in circles".

I know that the document needs an awful lot of reading, and it is no use to anyone who has a short attention span, and thus, because the world likes it's Opinions and Understanding fed to it in small bites, covered in cream, there is nothing to be gained by reading it with the critical faculties switched off and from a stand point of a prior conviction.

[Tankus]

Civics and Government classes in High School

...

errr wot..?

[deuces wild]

Civics and Government classes in High School

...

errr wot..?

You missed them also? :lol: :lol:

[andsome]

I would defy anyone with a modicum of common sense to plough through all that load of drivel. I have better things to read. If just an ounce of real common sense had been there it may have been easier. War and peace would be easier to get through. :lol:

[catgate]

I would defy anyone with a modicum of common sense to plough through all that load of drivel. I have better things to read. If just an ounce of real common sense had been there it may have been easier. War and peace would be easier to get through. :lol:

Yes, that seems to sum up the situation nicely. You have not read it.

Those word spoken by the Red Queen at Alice's trial, in Alice in Wonderland, seem somehow appropriate," Verdict first and then the evidence".

[andsome]

I have spent a few minutes on it here and there, and there was so much patent rubbish that I gave up. As I said, there are better things to read. Whoever thought that lot up has a vivid but unrealistic imagination. Can you imagine what large swathes of the population would say if told that it was their turn to sit in the non elected parliament? There are millions who are incapable of thinking beyond the next episodes of the soap operas or big brother, and trips to the betting shop and pub. I can just imagine them turning up to sit and legislate. Monthly referendums was also mentioned. Can you imagine these self same people turning out once per month on to vote on legislation that they cannot even understand? The whole idea is pie in the sky and not worth even thinking about. There is a whole lot that leaves much to be desired in the present system, and I dislike the power mad as much as anyone. However to try and force the masses into this parliament, and expect them to agree about anything at all beggars belief. I dread to think what it would all cost in any case. The author appears to think that crime would decrease, now that really is funny. The criminals would laugh all the way to the next job, while this parliament argued as to what if any legislation to pass. A large proportion of the couldn't care less brigade probably don't even know what the word means. That article is not even funny, it's too ludicrous and boring to really make anyone laugh.

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