I'm up and down like a yoyo

[doug]

Have been flagging my erratic BB connections to TalkTalk, they have been changing my profiles over the last few days. My connection has improved so much that I can remain on-line for up to a minute before the connections drops. It can then take up to 24 (worst case so far) before the router re-synchs. The problem is now being flagged up as a line fault - only taken 3 weeks - todate. Anyway I'm not appealing for help - yet but I'd thought I would let you know. Be in touch Off and On (occasionally).

[CurlyWhirly]

You were warned about signing up with Talk Talk a while ago :(

[doug]

It was an executive decision taken by the management!

[CurlyWhirly]

It was an executive decision taken by the management!

You mean your other half ?

[doug]

[catgate]

It's just a pity you were not on cable NTL, now Virgin of course. Their users are always saying how satisfied they are.

[CurlyWhirly]

It's just a pity you were not on cable NTL, now Virgin of course. Their users are always saying how satisfied they are.

Agreed but only around half of the population can get it.

I can't get cable as I use the phone line for broadband and I don't get any problems.

In fact I'm lucky enough to have never had a line fault since first going on to broadband back in May 2003 ! (touchwood)

Mind you I'm on a monthly contract and so I could ask Zen for a Mac code after this period of time if they didn't get my broadband service working properly.

Unfortunately doug is probably tied into a 12 or 18 month contract and so isn't a priority as far as Talk Talk is concerned as they know that he can't migrate to another ISP without paying off any money owed :(

What should be happening is that they should be sorting it out by chasing up BT Openreach as even if doug is on an unbundled line (i.e. Talk Talk have installed their equipment in the exchange), it is still BT Openreach that are responsible for the maintenance of the network, that is BT's phone lines.

[doug]

All very true. Certainly the financial aspects of the TT 3 package is very good. Which is just the job for an OAP. The problem is the reliability of the BB connection. Good for many days with moderate performance, albeit not a brilliant speed but more that adequate for a bit of surfing and lurking. Access the the Internet is just the ticket for management, who unfortunately is disabled. She was trying to do her Xmas grocery shop with Tesco on Tuesday when the connection decided to play games. It took so long to get the order placed that she lost the delivery slot she was trying to make for the Sunday before Xmas, she could only go for the preceding Thursday. Consequently, we will have to physically shop for the fresh stuff just before Xmas which means struggling through the crowds - which is a pain at the best of times- I'm sorry to say that the disability laws to the contrary people do not respect the disabled and just barge past expecting right of way regardless no common courtesy whatsoever. Over the last 18 years I have become very saddened about our fellow members of humanity. Sorry you've got me going and this is supposed to be a technical board and not the lounge. I should know better.

[CurlyWhirly]

Certainly the financial aspects of the TT 3 package is very good. The problem is the reliability of the BB connection.

This is why the TT 3 package wouldn't appeal to me as I am only a light mobile phone user and would rather have a hassle free broadband connection even if it costs a few quid a month more.

Do you by any chance use extension cable as if you do this could be causing noise on your line which can cause the connection to drop and this is worse in the evenings anyway.

Is your connection always dodgy or does it usually play up in the evenings and not through the day?

To eliminate household wiring problems have you tried connecting the router in the test socket on the master socket ?

Zen have uploaded a video on YouTube if you don't know how to carry this out.

See here

[catgate]

It's just a pity you were not on cable NTL, now Virgin of course. Their users are always saying how satisfied they are.

Unfortunately doug is probably tied into a 12 or 18 month contract and so isn't a priority as far as Talk Talk is concerned as they know that he can't migrate to another ISP without paying off any money owed :(

Yes I know the problem well. I was with Onetel for many years, even before they got into the ISP business. When Doug said he was goint to talk talk I felt some apprehension for him, because the rot set in with Onetel when Centrica took them over, and it went down hill from there. Carphone Whorehouse and talk talk bought them, along with AOL and brought everything down to the lowest common denominator. I stuck with them until it got so bad that the combination of the constant failing of BT's 70 year old telephone cable and the constant "offage" and "unexplainage", coupled with the "rottonservicage" of Carphone Whorehouse, caused me to migrate from the .Onte/talktalk/etc frying pan into the Tiscali fire. It is cheaper, but that is the only benefit. Until we can get away from a mole chewed relic of a cable from 1938 there is no chance of us ever getting a decent reliable connection.

You have my utmost sympathy Doug.

[doug]

Well the main benefit is the free calls to landline numbers. the 0870 and mobiles calls are charged. We certainly have seen a significant reduction in the 'phone bill.

I use a Cat 5 cable direct from the master socket to the router, about 5 m length and this is connected to the PC using the Ethernet link.

Yes tried going directly into the test point behind the faceplate in the incoming socket - no difference.

I'm trying to determine if the problem is down to noise/time of day. This is a bit difficult but I'm leaving the router/modem on 24/7 and using every opportunity to note the system information. This only gives the time the router was up and doesn't log the disconnects or how many attempts to re-synch after a drop out. (SmartAX MT882). But so far there's no clear pattern.

Had some detailed discussion on the Broadbandbuyer Forum My posts on BBB

[andsome]

I have mentioned before in these Talk Talk discussions, a friend who has also had no end of bother with them. After running fine for about the last three weeks, except for a BB connection speed a fraction of what it should be, it is playing up again. She can no longer get e mail through Outlook express, only 6 will download. If she then returns, the same six come down again, not having been deleted from the server. Someone in India has talked her through entering the account details again, all to no avail. She now has to use web mail.

[CurlyWhirly]

I use a Cat 5 cable direct from the master socket to the router, about 5 m length and this is connected to the PC using the Ethernet link.

That wouldn't be the cause as cat5 patch cable can be as long as 100 metres before the signal is affected.

Yes tried going directly into the test point behind the faceplate in the incoming socket - no difference.

In that case your internal wiring is not the cause as the test socket isolates it.

I'm trying to determine if the problem is down to noise/time of day.

I would say so as on BT's network (i.e. not on an unbundled line), the default SNR margin is 6 dB which is a compromise between speed and stability.

Mine is on 9 dB for stability purposes and is as stable as a rock:

Link Information

Uptime: 20 days, 15:03:29

Modulation: G.992.1 Annex A

Bandwidth (Up/Down) [kbps/kbps]: 448 / 3,616

Data Transferred (Sent/Received) [GB/GB]: 6.17 / 20.42

Output Power (Up/Down) [dBm]: 11.5 / 18.0

Line Attenuation (Up/Down) [dB]: 31.5 / 54.0

SN Margin (Up/Down) [dB]: 19.0 / 9.0

Vendor ID (Local/Remote): TMMB /

Loss of Framing (Local/Remote): 0 / 0

Loss of Signal (Local/Remote): 0 / 0

Loss of Power (Local/Remote): 0 / 0

Loss of Link (Remote): 0

Error Seconds (Local/Remote): 11,346 / 0

FEC Errors (Up/Down): 5,436 / 1,669,794

CRC Errors (Up/Down): 4,024 / 22,548

HEC Errors (Up/Down): 2,622 / 19,828

I also have interleaving on which on my line means the difference between a stable and an unstable connection as this error detection corrects most data packet errors (in bold)

Before I had interleaving enabled, my connection used to drop every evening so I asked Zen to turn it 'ON' and now I rarely get dropouts except in the summer months with thunderstorms.

Firstly do you know if your exchange is unbundled by Talk Talk?

To find out enter your phone number into here

I would say that you definently need interleaving on your line to stabilise your connection - see here for further info.

That article refers to a BT (Wholesale) connection and you are probably on LLU as your mode is set to ADSL2 and BT currently uses ADSL only (at least until the 21CN upgrade is fully rolled out) but the principles are the same.

[CurlyWhirly]

I forgot to post your line stats on the Broadband Buyer forum thread.

Your SNR margin is 30 dB which is way too high and indicates a line 'noise' issue and I am fairly sure that interleaving would solve the problem.

If I was you I would ask Talk Talk to switch it on themselves if your on an unbundled line and ask BT to switch interleaving on if your line is using BT's equipment i.e. a non-LLU line.

Have a read here to explain LLU better than I can.

[-pops-]

I'm staying with BT - as I have been right from the start of my BB use.

NEVER had any problem with them.

They aren't the cheapest but I couldn't be bothered with the hassle that other, cheaper, ISPs seem to generate.

[Irene]

What an impressive knowledge you have on this subject, Curleywhirly!!

I got lost after the the first paragraph.

[CurlyWhirly]

What an impressive knowledge you have on this subject, Curleywhirly!!

I got lost after the the first paragraph.

I do spend a lot of time on various broadband forums :D

I did this because when I first went on to Max DSL, my line was behaving like doug's and I wanted to find out more and then I realised that I like reading about broadband problems and how to solve them.

[Irene]

What an impressive knowledge you have on this subject, Curleywhirly!! I got lost after the the first paragraph.

I do spend a lot of time on various broadband forums :D I did this because when I first went on to Max DSL, my line was behaving like doug's and I wanted to find out more and then I realised that I like reading about broadband problems and how to solve them.

Thanks good to know.

I know who to contact now, should I encounter any broadband problems. :D

[doug]

>CW

I forgot to post your line stats on the Broadband Buyer forum thread.

Your SNR margin is 30 dB which is way too high and indicates a line 'noise' issue and I am fairly sure that interleaving would solve the problem.

Would you elaborate on this over there or here so I can get a better understanding. Ta

Taken just now. Obviously went off again at about sometime during the night but re-established at about midnight.

[CurlyWhirly]

CW

I forgot to post your line stats on the Broadband Buyer forum thread.

Would you elaborate on this over there or here so I can get a better understanding. Ta

I can't do that doug as I'm not a registered member.

I meant to say that I forgot to post your line stats from that forum over here (I've done that now)

I can't believe that no one on that forum has mentioned that interleaving would stabilise your line like it did mine when I had it switched on.

There is a disadvantage with interleaving and that is if your into online gaming, it adds between 10 and 20 ms to your ping but is not noticeable when browsing and downloading files.

In order to solve your problem, can't you ask Talk Talk to have interleaving enabled on your line?

I'm confident that this would solve your problem.

If you go ahead with a line fault and BT Openreach visit your home and don't find a fault then they will charge you a fee for 'wasting their time' so be warned.

[doug]

Been worried about the no fault fee. that's why I've been clocking everything I can to prove the problem is not with me.

[CurlyWhirly]

Been worried about the no fault fee. that's why I've been clocking everything I can to prove the problem is not with me.

Unfortunately if the engineer arrives at your home and he doesn't find a fault then you will be charged.

If it was me, I would get interleaving enabled on your line before asking for an engineer visit!

[doug]

Well for what it's worth my connection has been up for 22 hrs 26 mins. Mind the FEC errors have been going up and down like a yoyo. I'll analyse the results tomorrow. So far there seems to be a clear pattern in that when the rate of FEC up errors goes beyond a certain rate then the BB speed drops dramatically. There wont be an exact correlation because I can only estimate the line noise from the preceding period to the moment when I run a speed test. Whether the varying periods of noise on the line relates to the disconnects and the subsequent number of attempts is another question. Here's how my connection speed has performed recently.

[catgate]

If you had presented your results to me as a control chart I would have rejected the batch for having an out of control AOQL!! Students T or not.

edit;- It's all deviation and no standard.

[CurlyWhirly]

Mind the FEC errors have been going up and down like a yoyo

As your on fast path (from your router stats that you posted on the other forum), you won't have FEC errors as these only apply if you have interleaving enabled.

In any case FEC errors are not really errors as they are corrected.

http://www.kitz.co.uk/adsl/interleaving.htm

When adsl data packets are transmitted they contain additional control bits that enable your modem/router to check and correct a certain amount of erroneous bits. This type of error checking is known as FEC or Forward Error Correction.

If your line is particularly susceptible to bursts of noise then interleaving should improve your adsl experience simply because if you lose a whole batch of data then this could cause your modem to loose sync with the exchange.

Most errors should be corrected by the interleaving like in the case of my line where most of the errors are FEC errors i.e. corrected:

The above errors are on an uptime of over 21 days which is quite good.

I know that if I had interleaving switched off, my line would become unstable in the evenings like before.

Any errors that can't be corrected are assigned as a CRC or a HEC error and these errors are real and mean that the data needs to be re-transmitted wasting bandwidth.

I would guess that interleaving would help as from your line stats on the other forum (below) you have 139 CRC and 29 HEC errors on an uptime of only 5 minutes and 42 seconds and if you compare it with my error rates above on an uptime of over 21 days you will see what I mean (only HEC and CRC as FEC errors don't count on fast path which you are on)

As you have a lower attenuation than me (at 48 dB compared to 55 dB in my case), you should be getting faster sync speeds as your router is only syncing at just over 1 Mb (1031) compared to around 3.6 Mb in my case and I have a worse line than you.

This is because your SNR target margin has been raised because of excess line 'noise' and this is what is causing the fluctuation in your speeds :(

p.s. it's a long shot, but have you tried replacing your ADSL filter as some times these can be faulty?