"Americans" spoiling "English"

[Daphne]

This is the continuation of the debate incidentally created on

Windows Forum > Windows Support > Software Troubles > XP - Truly multilingual environment?

Catgate wrote:

   

If I were you, I'd be proud of having the Americans speaking your language.

My point was that they are not speaking "my language". They are speaking their own polyglot version of a tongue based originally on English, but with additions from various part of the globe, and they then have the arrogence to call it English and try to force it, along with the rest of their less than savoury culture and "democracy", on the rest of the world.

The vast number of them are European refugees and drop-outs, with a sprinkling of Far Eastern people thrown in for good measure. Most of the true Americans were consigned to reservations by the original English drop outs and opportunists

Well, I think we're mixing two different things. As far as I've got to study (and I still face a long way to go), one thing is language and another is the people who speaks it. You gave only one example (the Americans). But, in almost every nation in Europe - except for the Basques - got a language imposed by another by racial intermixing or domination. Even the so proud Germans were originally anything else than German speaking tribes.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/1334512.stm

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/wales/1256894.stm

Thou, "your" language is the local fit of other Mestizos' Dutch who settled just only on the East Anglian coast and made trade or raid over the British Aborigenes. Anglo-Saxons, Normans and Danes are historical conventions like Spain and France. The same for languages. But I must remind you that there never existed a nearly aproximate identification between languages and peoples. The foretold Basques are 85% Basque, and speak the most part of the day French and Spanish. In the UK exist other languages beside(s) English, and English is just another scientifical fiction.

And now for the American English. I agree with you that they are more Mestizos than they could ever admit. But most American stars acknowledge some Native American origin. But regarding their language, its main traits are more "Great British" (Irish too) than Spanish or Polish. And there is an incontestable link between present-day American English evolution and Estuary English and South-eastern speaches, contrasting with the rest of England. So, who is more Anglo-Saxon and in which sense? After You make a DNA Haplogroup test, would you feel the need to learn Basque. I don't think you would. And this bring us to the ultimative question you pointed out, but I need to differentiat from the rest of your arguments.

That definitely we all talk the language business (classes) impose. American English is today only the visible peak of this phenomenon.

Personally, I find it comfortable. Don't distinguish an American or British style and I think of it like "our" language, like any other else. Fell sorrow that my favorite author, Shakespeare, is dead. But American movies are not bad either. Prefer to read English than those languages like French, Italian, or German with their irregularities and nice but lavish sentence constructions. the type? Some day we'll write Chinese characters for English words. :D

[catgate]

The English language, as you point out, is, like many more, composed of a mixture of other languages which have coalesced either through commerce or conquest. It is precisely because of this that we have a multitude of different words for the same object or the same action etc. Many of these old languages can be still be traced in our local dialects, and some words, still in use in local dialects, are totally unchanged from the time they arrived here. If this were not so there would be no market for crossword puzzles (Do these exist in other languages?) The net result, however, is that today we have English. We do not call it Dutch, we do not call it Saxon, we do not call it Latin, nor French, nor Norse, nor any of the languages which have contributed to its creation.

It is like mixing paint. You can start with blue and mix in some yellow, and you get green. But if you continue calling the resulting colour blue you would convince no one. If you were to take pure water and drop in a piece of sodium (remembering to wear eye protection, a hard hat, safety boots and a signed permit from the Health and Safety Executive) you would produce sodium hydroxide. If you were to continue to call it, and treat it as pure water the very least you would get would be disappointing coffee. It is all faintly reminiscent of John Cleese' parrot. It is not possible to be only marginally pregnant without loosing virgin status.

[deuces wild]

American's took the English language and refined it to the way it should have been from the start. :P

[Scarecrow Man]

English in it's entirety, American or not, has been, and is derrived from many other languages as well as slang and "made up" words. It is the most incomplete language, in that it is always changing, thus making it a very versitile and widely known language.

Everyone has a different way of saying one thing or another.

EH?

[andsome]

I'm keeping out of this one, it has caused too much bother in past debates.

[deuces wild]

Aluminum or aluminium? :D :flowers:

[Daphne]

To name English like that is just a convention, the same like "American English". Languages get the label the conquerors gave them. If you look elsewhere you'll get a better scope. Scots speak English this way. But their speech is quite different. Some Northumbrians speak an English dialect almost identical to the "English" Scots use. Are they Scots (then give the English back)? North West Germans who speak "Deutsch" but also a dialect close to the Netherlands Dutch don't think of themselves as Dutch(wo)men nor aren't aware that they have closer links to those. Spanish itself does not exist (it is properly Castilian), and French (Francian), actually, should only be restricted to Ile de France and surroundings, but not to the Langue d'Oc. We should not mix up concepts like State-Nation / Nation-State and culture. Politic bodies and authoritarian structures created by power have nothing to do with cultural production - unless this is planed that way.

I think it's just a contradiction to affirm a language is a result of cultural interaction and then deny any other people to affirm it is her own.

Shakespeare's English does not longer exist. What we and the Americans call English is universal heritage. hence, anyone is entitled to adapt / adopt it. It is a question of efectiveness if every new adaptation can endure...

[catgate]

American's took the English language and refined it to the way it should have been from the start

e.g. Check out our check out then check out.

English in it's entirety, American or not, has been, and is derrived from many other languages as well as slang and "made up" words. It is the most incomplete language, in that it is always changing, thus making it a very versitile and widely known language.

You are of course talking of American and not real English. The language spoken in the UK is gradually becoming American, and hence the your perception of it is somewhat biased.

Aluminum or aluminium?

Sodium or sodum?

[Daphne]

You are of course talking of American and not real English. The language spoken in the UK is gradually becoming American, and hence the your perception of it is somewhat biased.

Your subjective perception of the situation is legitimate. But what could do the English (just not the British, then) on the cultural field to counter that American cultural impact? We come back to the economic ground...

Or might universal English be standardized like German or Spanish?

[Scarecrow Man]

English in it's entirety, American or not, has been, and is derrived from many other languages as well as slang and "made up" words. It is the most incomplete language, in that it is always changing, thus making it a very versitile and widely known language.

You are of course talking of American and not real English. The language spoken in the UK is gradually becoming American, and hence the your perception of it is somewhat biased.

Yes, I do have a bias opinion, not having been exposed to both (or more) of the english speaking areas in question. I do however think that this growth makes the english language better. We can adapt to new words, new meanings which I believe makes english a very versitile language.

[Scarecrow Man]

You are of course talking of American and not real English. The language spoken in the UK is gradually becoming American, and hence the your perception of it is somewhat biased.

Your subjective perception of the situation is legitimate. But what could do the English (just not the British, then) on the cultural field to counter that American cultural impact? We come back to the economic ground...

Or might universal English be standardized like German or Spanish?

Globalization...

Sticky topic that is. I'd rather stay away from that! :P ^ See above.

[deuces wild]

Sodium or sodum?

Well sodium of course.

Sodum....wasn't that a city by Gomorrah? :rolleyes:

[mark2]

I don't feel americans are spoiling english, as an englishman, I'm proud of the way that the language is evolving and is able to adapt, (even when the occasional "i" is dropped. :P ) It shows it is a living language and will live on.

How many languages in the world have disappeared because they couldn't/wouldn't adapt?

[catgate]

We can adapt to new words, new meanings which I believe makes english a very versitile language

Now this is the very nub of my objection.... making new words and giving others new meanings. Here in G.B. when we are asked for details, and are give a form on which to provide them, we "fill it in". In USA you "fill it out". How can out and in mean the same thing? One day I saw a child looking in a toyshop window and saying "That's wicked!" I expected to see a clockwork fornicating cat but no, it was an electric plastic robot thing.

The main purpose of language is to convey ideas and information, and to do this successfully the sender and the recipient should be in accord as to the meaning of the words, and also the manner of stringing them together. Otherwise there is a danger of being killed by friendly fire. Additionally the pronunciation of those words must be understandable to both parties, something that Dubya has trouble with even amongst his own.

Globalization...

Sticky topic that is. I'd rather stay away from that!

Would you like to give Dubya, and his friends, a reminder of your view, and mine as well. :rolleyes:

[catgate]

Well sodium of course.

Sodum....wasn't that a city by Gomorrah

I was not sure how that would be picked up., but I chose sodium as opposed to any other****ium because it could be read as "Sod 'em" or "Soddem" or "So dumb". :D

[Scarecrow Man]

Now this is the very nub of my objection.... making new words and giving others new meanings. Here in G.B. when we are asked for details, and are give a form on which to provide them, we "fill it in". In USA you "fill it out". How can out and in mean the same thing? One day I saw a child looking in a toyshop window and saying "That's wicked!" I expected to see a clockwork fornicating cat but no, it was an electric plastic robot thing.

The main purpose of language is to convey ideas and information, and to do this successfully the sender and the recipient should be in accord as to the meaning of the words, and also the manner of stringing them together. Otherwise there is a danger of being killed by friendly fire. Additionally the pronunciation of those words must be understandable to both parties, something that Dubya has trouble with even amongst his own.

Globalization...

Sticky topic that is. I'd rather stay away from that!

Would you like to give Dubya, and his friends, a reminder of your view, and mine as well. :rolleyes:

I see where your comming from catgate...

The americans "took" your language, butchered it and didn't even bother changing the name. Now it has grown to a large monster that is spilling into previously "virgin english" speaking countries. Blunt, but I think thats what your saying.

I am saying that the non-standardization of the language is a good thing! As mark said, "How many languages in the world have disappeared because they couldn't/wouldn't adapt?"

[Tankus]

Does it matter .?..all languages evolve..... or they die .......and look at the regional variations in the way we pronounce it over here ...! ..... I once went to a working mans club in Hull when several local comedians came on stage .... I seriously needed subtitles , 'cause I did'nt have a clue what the hell they were laughing about .... (less than 4pts of nuky by then too...!)

Take a look at English texts only a few hundred years ago ...?

I have heard regional variations in US English , but the differences are nowhere near as large as ours considering the relatively shorter distances ...

Bit more of a standard ...over there ....?

[Scarecrow Man]

I have heard regional variations in US English , but the differences are nowhere near as large as ours considering the relatively shorter distances  ...

Bit more of a  standard ...over there ....?

Not at all.

Canadians don't speak NEARLY as much slang as they do in the USA. Places like New York have thier own version of english even people from Buffalo (same state, different city) cant understand.

Now that's not to say that any one "version" of english is the correct one. It's just that if you ask for a pint in new foundland, and ask the exact same question in brittish columbia, you may get two completly different things. That's within Canada as well... :huh:

And it's not so much that the language has "evolved" either. It's just a matter of personal preference and exposure to a word, and how it should be said.

If we all went around saying that the word "cat" was to be said, "cut" and everyone followed along, eventually we would forget what a cat is.

[deuces wild]

Well sodium of course.

Sodum....wasn't that a city by Gomorrah

I was not sure how that would be picked up., but I chose sodium as opposed to any other****ium because it could be read as "Sod 'em" or "Soddem" or "So dumb". :D

As the word "appropriate" ends in "r-i-a-t-e" should the word "commensurate" be spelled "commensuriate"? :rolleyes:

[catgate]

I see where your comming from catgate...

The americans "took" your language, butchered it and didn't even bother changing the name. Now it has grown to a large monster that is spilling into previously "virgin english" speaking countries. Blunt, but I think thats what your saying.

I am saying that the non-standardization of the language is a good thing! As mark said, "How many languages in the world have disappeared because they couldn't/wouldn't adapt?"

Well your nearly there. The original "butcherers" were mainly British who were so arrogant and self important ( and newly freed of the constraints of Empire) that they could "do as they wished". As a result, amongst other things, many immigrants into America even had there identities butchered by the arrogent New Americans. The butcherers were originally using English, but just gradually altered it.

The languages that have disappeared have been assimilated into that which replaced them, just as English replaced Norse, Norman, Saxon etc. , but the "new" language was not called by any of its components because it was not any of its components. It was an entirely different composite entity, and that is what American is. This is recognised by the fact that there are different dictionaries for American English and English English. It is recognised in keyboard layouts and "on screen" set up routines. The original point I was trying to make, in reply to Daphne's first post, was the fact that world wide there are millions of people who think of English as the language of the west, whereas, in actual fact, it is the language that was, and should be, used by a small, increasingly insignificant group of islands off the west coast of Europe. The rest of "English" as they know it is American.

Why, when the Americans have claimed to have invented every thing from the camera to the jet engine, they are loth to claim a language of their own I can not understand. I suppose in years to come history will be rewritten to facilitate this.

I am still left with some odd thought as to why their distortions are necessary. Why do they invent "outage" when "power cut" already exists and is more descriptive. Is it so that they can save time...so that the can say "at this time" instead of "now"?

[Scarecrow Man]

You win. I have no more arguements. Catgate, I tip my hat to you sir, and wish all the best in standardizing english. Perhaps you could write your own dictionary? :lol:

[deuces wild]

If you took a poll amongst those in the US and Canada, I would guess most would vote to listen to someone from England to read a book to them vs someone from their region.

Your accent is remarkably smooth and soothing to the ears, as is your command of the language (generally). Many advertisers in the US will use a person with a British accent to do the voice over on the advertising of their high end products as the British accent portrays a sense of class and good taste to those here in the States. ;)

[Hurdy]

.......and look at the regional variations in the way we pronounce it over here ...! ...

Once worked in Brierley Hill - thought all the punters were German.

[peter e]

As was said previously, all languages develop and change, English being no exception. Also, there are bound to be variations spoken in different regions. I'm very proud of our wonderful and ever changing language which has become the most successful language in the World. I don't really care that there are some anomilies between the way it's spoken in some countries because the language will develop in the way that the people who speak it enable it to develop. Language is beyond the control of academics and governments!

We should be pleased that our language is shared by many other societies. And, as for criticism of the Americans for they way they use our (their) language - they still spell and pronounce the way we used to in England in the Eighteeenth Century - it is English spoken in England which has changed and that which is spoken in America which has changed less. So those who complain about American English should get their facts straight.

[doug]

Very interesting Peter. Made me re-think things on this subject. As I can't spell anyway I can now say I have a more valid excuse.