OH NO!. Is he intending to stay on?

[andsome]

Is B'liar intending to stay longer. Heaven forbid. Look here.

[Robbers Dog]

Is anyone really bothered?????? Apart from the usual handful of members.

[andsome]

Is anyone really bothered?????? Apart from the usual handful of members.

He's done more than enough damage already.

[Thos]

If you think that the Labour Party has "done enough damage", well you are entitled to that opinion. I believe that , for all of the faults, the country is better off now than when they came into power, and immeasurably better off than the direction we were going under the previous administrations.

[andsome]

Surely you can see that after all the accusations of Tory sleaze, this lot have turned out to be at least equally as sleazy if not a damned sight worse. Or would you say that they are as pure as the driven snow?

Worse off

More on the NHS Click here

Yet more on the NHS. Click here

And more. Click here

More about sleaze

Who is the sleaziest of them all? Find out here.

[edbanger]

Is anyone really bothered?????? Apart from the usual handful of members.

He's done more than enough damage already.

I,m sure that when I pop down to my local tonight it will be the main topic of conversation. :lol: :lol: :lol:

[andsome]

Is anyone really bothered?????? Apart from the usual handful of members.

He's done more than enough damage already.

I,m sure that when I pop down to my local tonight it will be the main topic of conversation. :lol: :lol: :lol:

There you go then, so it should be.

[Belatucadrus]

On the one hand Blair on the other Brown, talk about the devil and the deep blue sea.

[andsome]

On the one hand Blair on the other Brown, talk about the devil and the deep blue sea.

They talk about a hand over. Surely the party members are supposed to have some kind of vote.

[expertec]

They talk about a hand over. Surely the party members are supposed to have some kind of vote.

Forget the bloody party members, what about us? When did we vote for Brown? :huh:

Not that I voted for Blair, but you get what I'm saying? Democracy... pffft!

[r4may]

If you think that the Labour Party has "done enough damage", well you are entitled to that opinion. I believe that , for all of the faults, the country is better off now than when they came into power, and immeasurably better off than the direction we were going under the previous administrations.

IMHO

You may well believe that, but the records show that regardless of the high level of Taxation :-

NHS is in it's worst crisis since it's inception and almost bankrupt.

Crime is at it's highest and the most violent for generations.

Senior citizens are now only second class citizens with their care, pensions plundered and only courted when their vote is required.

Education is, on average, of third world standard except for the elite.

The rights of all citizens is being eroded by Political Correctness and control by stealth.

The 'Right Honourable Members' of our current administration are the most sleazy, self seeking, lying Dishonourable Members we have ever seen. :angry: :angry:

[dadyassa]

If you think that the Labour Party has "done enough damage", well you are entitled to that opinion. I believe that , for all of the faults, the country is better off now than when they came into power, and immeasurably better off than the direction we were going under the previous administrations.

IMHO

You may well believe that, but the records show that regardless of the high level of Taxation :-

NHS is in it's worst crisis since it's inception and almost bankrupt.

Crime is at it's highest and the most violent for generations.

Senior citizens are now only second class citizens with their care, pensions plundered and only courted when their vote is required.

Education is, on average, of third world standard except for the elite.

The rights of all citizens is being eroded by Political Correctness and control by stealth.

The 'Right Honourable Members' of our current administration are the most sleazy, self seeking, lying Dishonourable Members we have ever seen. :angry: :angry:

You forgot to add " since the tories " at the end ;)

[r4may]

You forgot to add " since the tories " at the end ;)

The Tories were lying, sleazy, self seeking at the expense mainly of those who could afford it and of similar orientation. This lot do it to anyone especially the taxpayer and 'Middle Britain'. :unsure:

[dadyassa]

You forgot to add " since the tories " at the end ;)

The Tories were lying, sleazy, self seeking at the expense mainly of those who could afford it and of similar orientation. This lot do it to anyone especially the taxpayer and 'Middle Britain'. :unsure:

I can remember budget days were very similar ;) no matter who is in, champagne tax is never increased ? :D

[r4may]

I forgot to mention in the last line:-

This lot do it to anyone especially the taxpayer and 'Middle Britain' Including the DEAD.

although they all target the dead but this lot more than anyone else.

[catgate]

I remember hearing an old farmer once say, " I reckon nowt ter t'Labour. They believe wi shud all ev nowt and iverybody shudd share at it!"

My observations lead me to believe that " t'Conservatives think they should hev it all an noan of us shudd share at it!" and "t'Liberals doant care who as it all as long as they can have funny relationships!"

[Thos]

I believe that I said in my post earlier that I felt that this country is better off since the Labour party came into power and immeasurably better off than if the Conservative party had been returned. Andsome countered by ignoring that and asking if I thought that the Labour party are as pure as the driven snow. Of course I don’t. But lets get some perspective on this matter of securing loans. Doing it in this underhand way is wrong and, to its credit, the Labour party is doing something about it (before someone says it, I agree, being forced to do something). Parties have always sought money for their expenses, Conservatives through their business friends and Labour, before the nineties from the trade unions. Blair rightly sought to disentangle from trade union control and has looked for funding from elsewhere. This should have been overt but at least donors have now been named at any rate the donors to the Labour party. The Conservatives refuse to do this. Where is the sleaze now?

To stay on andsome’s post for one more point. Why all the links? If we are to debate a topic can we have some original thought rather than the stuff from others, often with a vested interested and often regurgitated from the Opposition Central Office.

R4may posted his thoughts on the state of the country.

Well I don’t think that the NHS is at it’s worst condition. It is remarkable how well it is continuing to serve after years of neglect. Oddly enough, I believe that the law and order problem is not violent crime but minor crime and the lack of respect for others causing poor behaviour on the streets. I also do not believe for a second the gibe about pensioners and second class treatment. The rot on pensions set in under the Conservative administration which failed to retain the link with earnings rather that prices. Finally, Political Correctness in its now accepted form is practiced by all parties but “stealth” is a word unjustifiably introduced when someone objects to a tax which has not troubled their conciousness before. I am hearing it now about things which were set out in the usual way in Gordon Brown’s budget speech.

You may gather from this that I do not concur with r4may’s views, though there are things to be done.

Just to wind up, if Blair resigns whilst his party is in power, the party will choose a new leader through laid down procedures.

Any more tea in that pot, catgate, or am I now not to be invited to tea-parties anymore?

Thos. :ranting:

[andsome]

The reason that I post links is because we are asked not to risk libellous statements, and instead to post a link where possible.

The Conservatives have not disclosed donors, because at the time of the loans they agreed not to disclose these loans. Of course in my opinion this is not right, and things will not be done this way in future. I accused labour of sleaze, because like it or not THEY DID swear to be honest and as pure as the driven snow, or words to that effect. I have always been honest about the Tories and their last sleazy government, but this lot has overtaken on that front, especially with cronyism. We all know who I mean. Who in a previous Tory government spent £50,000,000 on decorating at public expense, no one as far as I know. We all know who did with this lot. As Catgate has said several times in the past, there are few straight and fully honest politicians about wherever you look. I don't see how anyone can deny the near bankrupt state of the NHS now, this is despite all the extra money being pumped in. This is due mainly as I have said in the past to top heavy and exceptionally poor management. At a time when we could do with more caring professionals, they are being made redundant by these same inefficient managers, while the managers ranks are increasing. Over 50% of the population can no longer get NHS dentistry. More and more of the NHS is being privatised by LABOUR, not the Tories, but LABOUR.

[Thos]

The reason that I post links is because we are asked not to risk libellous statements, and instead to post a link where possible.

The Conservatives have not disclosed donors, because at the time of the loans they agreed not to disclose these loans. Of course in my opinion this is not right, and things will not be done this way in future. I accused labour of sleaze, because like it or not THEY DID swear to be honest and as pure as the driven snow, or words to that effect. I have always been honest about the Tories and their last sleazy government, but this lot has overtaken on that front, especially with cronyism. We all know who I mean. Who in a previous Tory government spent £50,000,000 on decorating at public expense, no one as far as I know. We all know who did with this lot. As Catgate has said several times in the past, there are few straight and fully honest politicians about wherever you look. I don't see how anyone can deny the near bankrupt state of the NHS now, this is despite all the extra money being pumped in. This is due mainly as I have said in the past to top heavy and exceptionally poor management. At a time when we could do with more caring professionals, they are being made redundant by these same inefficient managers, while the managers ranks are increasing. Over 50% of the population can no longer get NHS dentistry. More and more of the NHS is being privatised by LABOUR, not the Tories, but LABOUR.

What an odd intemperate contribution. All of the donors asked for anonymity. But the Conservatives have always witheld the names of their donors and still do.

Are we to have a government decided by whether or not they decorated rooms at public expense?

Catgate has some original thoughts, with which I disagree, but marginally.

We will have to disagree about the NHS. My main point being that work is being done to reverse the massive underfunding of previous administrations. If that had carried on there would have been no NHS abot which we could debate.

Thos.

[catgate]

This thread is developing into a debate that resembles the problem that faced the joiner when he was trying to decide which of the teeth on the circular saw blade took his finger off.

It makes very little difference who wins the election the politicians always get in. The politicians will then spend the money they extract from the people in a way, not necessarily for the benifit of all people, that will a) please their backers, and B) try to ensure, as much as is possible that they are going to be re-elected. All other matters are of secondary importance (other than the egotistical objectives of those standing on the top of the midden.

I was forced to laugh at a comment the cropped up recently, that the NHS was being used as a political tool. The thing was started by Nye as a political tool.

I'm not brewing any more tea to night, we are just off to see if Tesco's have any cut price diesel fuel. :)

[expertec]

The thing was started by Nye as a political tool.

Much as I might disagree with some of the other things you say, it is good to see someone else who recognises that fact.

[andsome]

We will have to disagree about the NHS. My main point being that work is being done to reverse the massive underfunding of previous administrations. If that had carried on there would have been no NHS abot which we could debate.

We are getting less and less of a National Health Service to debate about as things stand at present. What kind of service is it that in order to turn the corner has to make thousand of caring professionals redundant, while increasing management? What about those who cannot afford dental fees now, and from the fist of April this list will get longer, as Dentists opt out of Labours new deal, (so called).

I consider that £50,000,000 spent on decorating is a valid point concerning the sleaze of this government. The same individual probably pays less in income tax than most on this forum, despite his vast income. This kind of behaviour has always been used as a Tory bashing tool, so I feel fully justified in using it to bash Labour. Catgate has hit the nail on the head, by pointing out time and time again that MOST politicians are just as bad, a point that you deny.

[Thos]

What about those who cannot afford dental fees now, and from the fist of April this list will get longer, as Dentists opt out of Labours new deal, (so called).

But this is to ignore the efforts being made to satisfy the dentists' demands. Because they complained, maybe with justification, that the NHS contract paid them too little, a new contract has been devised in consultation with their professional body. This has been trialled in some areas with most of the "guinea pigs" expressing their satisfaction. It is due to roll out nationally on 1 April, but dentists want more and can get more by telling their patients that it is in their best interest to enter into an insurance contract. What ought the employers to do. Give in and pay ever more of your money? I know what the answer would be if it were a group of manual workers doing this.

All I would ask is that there should be some understanding of the complexities of these situations.

I consider that £50,000,000 spent on decorating is a valid point concerning the sleaze of this government. The same individual probably pays less in income tax than most on this forum, despite his vast income. This kind of behaviour has always been used as a Tory bashing tool, so I feel fully justified in using it to bash Labour. Catgate has hit the nail on the head, by pointing out time and time again that MOST politicians are just as bad, a point that you deny.

The matter you referred to was a refurbishment of public buildings which has to be done from time to time, but bash away, if it makes you happy.

Catgate will answer for himself. I differ from him in his view that all politicians (not most as you felt you needed to forcibly point out) are corrupt and I am happy to stand up and be counted on that. In his post, above, he said " politicians will then spend the money.....................to try to ensure............ that they are going to be re-elected". Yes this is so and they would be remiss if they did not do so. After all they should believe that their policies are the right ones to follow.

Thos.

[andsome]

We are just going round in circles. After no more free dental service what next? A payment for a visit to a doctor is being muted at present.

This is a year 2000 link, but I know the topic is under consideration again, maybe someone will come up with a more up to date link.

Look here

[catgate]

Catgate will answer for himself. I differ from him in his view that all politicians (not most as you felt you needed to forcibly point out) are corrupt and I am happy to stand up and be counted on that. In his post, above, he said " politicians will then spend the money.....................to try to ensure............ that they are going to be re-elected". Yes this is so and they would be remiss if they did not do so. After all they should believe that their policies are the right ones to follow.

Thos.

The idea of "parties" is totally wrong in the operation of any sort of free 'democracy'. Our present system has lead to dichotomy (beg pardon you Liberals...trichotomy then).

Why is it necessary to form voting blocs in order to produce good sound government and legislation. The only thing it produces is "sledgehammer" government. This has been illustrated on several occasions recently.

One needs to ask, "Why does any party get donations and/or loans?" and "Why do the loaners and donators need to be secretive?." The legislation produced by our present system will always be in favour of the backers.

Less than two percent of the population of this country were members of a political party, on the last survey I saw. This means that the selection of malleable parliamentary candidates is controled by the party elite and rubber stamped by the staunch (blind) party members who turn up for just such a duty. Little wonder then that 'bloc' government is popular with backers.

There is always more than one way of skinning a cat so why should it always be restricted to 2 (or 3)?

As far as wastage of money is concerned the biggest scandle of all is the PPP and the PFI scam. I posted information some time ago regarding Social Credit. This pulled Alberta out of the deep mire of the '20s/'30s to make it into the envy of all North America. Anyone interested in this can find all about it by Googling. It was used also in Gurnsey and also in Glasgow, and in every case was successful in doing what was needed....but the banks (private finance) fought it all the way!!!

Just going for a cup!