OH NO!. Is he intending to stay on?

[Thos]

We are just going round in circles. After no more free dental service what next? A payment for a visit to a doctor is being muted at present.

This is a year 2000 link, but I know the topic is under consideration again, maybe someone will come up with a more up to date link.

Look here

We are indeed going round in circles and there now has been another point tossed into the middle around which we should dance.

I welcome that point because like the dentistry one (the complexities of which have not been acknowledged or even as far as I can judge, considered) it indicates what would happen if the Conservatives were in government. Charging for these services would be meat and drink to them.

Thos.

[Thos]

The idea of "parties" is totally wrong in the operation of any sort of free 'democracy'. Our present system has lead to dichotomy (beg pardon you Liberals...trichotomy then).

Why is it necessary to form voting blocs in order to produce good sound government and legislation. The only thing it produces is "sledgehammer" government. This has been illustrated on several occasions recently.

One needs to ask, "Why does any party get donations and/or loans?" and "Why do the loaners and donators need to be secretive?." The legislation produced by our present system will always be in favour of the backers.

Less than two percent of the population of this country were members of a political party, on the last survey I saw. This means that the selection of malleable parliamentary candidates is controled by the party elite and rubber stamped by the staunch (blind) party members who turn up for just such a duty. Little wonder then that 'bloc' government is popular with backers.

There is always more than one way of skinning a cat so why should it always be restricted to 2 (or 3)?

As far as wastage of money is concerned the biggest scandle of all is the PPP and the PFI scam. I posted information some time ago regarding Social Credit. This pulled Alberta out of the deep mire of the '20s/'30s to make it into the envy of all North America. Anyone interested in this can find all about it by Googling. It was used also in Gurnsey and also in Glasgow, and in every case was successful in doing what was needed....but the banks (private finance) fought it all the way!!!

Just going for a cup!

Thank you. I, too, have my doubts about the party system. It throws up far too many problems having to vote for a broad manifesto some of which you may (almost certainly will) disagree with. But I cannot see a legislature of independents. And this begs the question of ministerial responsibility when like minded individuals, even if not corrupt :) , are bound to get together to achieve their aims. So I don't think it practicable to do away with the party system unless it was for a dictatorship or other form ofautocracy.

I will look into your second point when I have some time: forgive me for not doing so straight away but I am getting an ear-bashing for spending time on this computer when I could be doing something useful, like washing the kitchen floor. :rolleyes:

Thos.

[catgate]

And this begs the question of ministerial responsibility when like minded individuals, even if not corrupt :) , are bound to get together to achieve their aims. So I don't think it practicable to do away with the party system unless it was for a dictatorship or other form ofautocracy.

Thos.

We have a system at present which is called the civil service :rolleyes: , however it seems to work reasonable well for all that. It works so well that it is a common place thing to move a minister from the say the Department of Holes, Lumps and Patches, into say the Department Of Agricultural and Environmental Interference completely seamlessly and the entire circus rolls on without more than the normal everyday hiccup. Generally speaking ministryships are granted for "favours received"( a bit like Tesco club card point in reverse) by the PM for supporting his policies and those of and the party's backers. Although if the support diminishes the minister will be moved, even if, as accidentally sometimes happens, that the minister has some ability (poor Mo).

You will be, like most of us BOFs on this forum, be able to remember the time when each town or city was run by the council or corporation and the had a Town Clerk and his staff who ran things. The decision were made by the council and carried out by the Town Clerk. We now have Council chief executives etc. councils who have "cabinets". You will also have found that as the politicisation of local and county councils has increased so the costs have gone up, the benefits to the rate payer have gone down and the corruption has increased. Without integrity honesty falls by the way side.

On the subject of Social Credit here are a few sites to look at:-

http://pages.globetrotter.net/social_credi...credit-ring.htm

http://www.socialcredit.com/

http://www.douglassocialcredit.com/

http://www.ucalgary.ca/applied_history/tut...cialcredit.html

http://www.ercouncil.org/How%20Guernsey%20...e%20Bankers.pdf

There are lots more, and some are very esoterical too. The Guernsey business was the first use of social credit of which I became aware, forty years ago, and as a result of the apparently resounding success of it, I looked more deeply. No I'm not a member of any party, but to me it looks like a very good way to finance the running/building of public enterprises, be they hospitals, schools or even millenium domes.

[Belatucadrus]

Does this thread have a point ?

Will andsome and Thos ever agree on anything ?

Does Tony Blair talk through his bum or does the sun shine from it ?

Did anybody see the eclipse ?

[Thos]

Does this thread have a point ?

Will andsome and Thos ever agree on anything ?

Does Tony Blair talk through his bum or does the sun shine from it ?

Did anybody see the eclipse ?

!. Yes. See the opening of the topic and whether the present government has improved our lives or otherwise.

2. Possibly not. On serious matters anyway.

3. Neither.

4. I couldn't see the eclipse 'cos Tony Blair is in Australia. :lol: :lol: :lol:

Thos.

[trackrat]

Whether andsome or thos will ever agree is definately open ended.

As far as Teflon Tony and his cronies are concerned, are they any worse than previous labour or tory goverments.;

At the end of the day if you put dishonest inducements in front of MP`s some will always feather there nest with them.

These may be cynical views but if the tories got into government tomorrow they would not rescind any of the stealth taxes that labour have introduced and you would still have MP`s trying to feather their nests.

[andsome]

You just can't beat a good debate. I will have to think of another contentious issue soon, unless Thos can come up with one.

[andsome]

More links to try and convince the doubters that B'liars NHS is in total crisis. Just how bad can it get.

[AlanHo]

You just can't beat a good debate. I will have to think of another contentious issue soon, unless Thos can come up with one.

I watched Prime Minister's Question time this week - with Blair away it was taken by Prescott.

It was a disgraceful debacle - any government that puts a buffoon in such a senior position shows scant respect for the British public.

I don't understand why you guys keep going on about Blair - Prescott is a far more worthy target. He is a perfect example in almost every respect of all that is wrong with government. Having said that - I suppose you will all jump on the Blair band wagon again for putting Prescott there and keeping him in place. It will be interesting to see how he fares if Brown takes over - I suspect he will jump before getting the push.

[catgate]

You just can't beat a good debate. I will have to think of another contentious issue soon, unless Thos can come up with one.

I watched Prime Minister's Question time this week - with Blair away it was taken by Prescott.

It was a disgraceful debacle - any government that puts a buffoon in such a senior position shows scant respect for the British public.

I don't understand why you guys keep going on about Blair - Prescott is a far more worthy target. He is a perfect example in almost every respect of all that is wrong with government. Having said that - I suppose you will all jump on the Blair band wagon again for putting Prescott there and keeping him in place. It will be interesting to see how he fares if Brown takes over - I suspect he will jump before getting the push.

It reminds me of the music hall, where there was the comic and his stooge (or straight man....no such thing in politics). In reality the Bliar/Prescott thing is more like the jester and his pigs bladder of the middle ages.

[andsome]

More about Prescott. It's an old link but still very true. Prescott the bufoon.

[Tankus]

AlanHo

It was a disgraceful debacle

hear hear

the subject matters were important

[Thos]

I gather from some of the opinions expressed that members feel that this subject has run it’s course and we were debating whether the nation is better off after a period of Labour Government. It does seem to me to have been a sterile and futile discussion largely because it is all so negative. What ideas have been suggested for a better future if it is so bad now after the Labour administrations? Andsome talked about the future of NHS dentistry and threw in the possibility of doctors charging for surgery visits. Would you trust a Conservative government to prevent this? Catgate will say you can trust neither but we have to face the fact that for the next few elections we shall be given the same choices of Labour, Conservative or at the margins, Lib-Dem.

Would the Conservatives not have backed the USA and refused to join the Alliance against Saddam Hussein? Do the Conservatives raise money from their many business backers? Would they be able to rein in local council spending? Would pensioners have been given a better deal?

My view is that I look at the broad thrust of each parties direction and though I may disagree with some personnel and some policies, I will vote for the party which comes closest to my ideals.

It isn't a matter of andsome v Thos but a fair consideration of all the factors involved in the complexities of government.

And I don't care if your eyes are glazing over!

Thos.

[andsome]

Well said. I think it has run it's course now and I will close it, unless anyone wants to post again, in which case let me know, and I will open the topic again. Thanks everyone for your contributions. Come on someone, think of a good topic for us to argue over.