This looks promising

[catgate]

Promising more Big Brother.

Tagging plan for vulnerable OAPs

Peter Walker

Thursday April 19, 2007

Guardian Unlimited

Electronic tagging device

Electronic tagging devices coule be fitted on the elederly under new plans.

Charities today gave a guarded welcome to a proposal by the science minister, Malcolm Wicks, that vulnerable older people could be tracked via satellite-monitored tags.

Mr Wicks first floated the idea to the Commons science and technology committee yesterday, when he said monitoring tags could help families or carers to track the whereabouts of "an 80 or 90-year-old who may have Alzheimer's".

Charities including Help the Aged and the Alzheimer's Society warned that such tagging would have to be carried out with great sensitivity and full consent, and should not become a substitute for proper care.

Today, Mr Wicks said he had been hoping to "start a discussion" about an idea that could allow elderly people more independence.

He told Guardian Unlimited he had met satellite tracking experts and asked them whether the sort of technology used for tracking cars could be adapted.

This, of course, would allow vulnerable old duffers to be left in their homes, where they would be more indepentant from the eventually privatised Health Service, and less of a burden on the taxpayer.

If it were found that they had gone "walkabout" the speaking cameras would be alerted and they could then be taken out by automatic friendly fire, whilst trying to escape.

More money for freebies, away days and expenses. Yet another recipe, and 1st April has long since past.

[andsome]

Sounds like a typical B'liar government plan. Shut down the care homes, keep people locked away indoors and save some more money to waste.

[Thos]

Sounds like a typical B'liar government plan. Shut down the care homes, keep people locked away indoors and save some more money to waste.

That sounds like a typical Not-so-Andsome response.

What Malcom Wicks said was " We've got an ageing population, with many people frail and suffering from dementia,......... how can we get the balance right so that they have the freedom to live their lives, to go out into the community and go shopping, but also that some might benefit from being monitored so that their families know they are safe and secure? These are new and early ideas - I'd be interested to hear people's views on this."

This measured approach contrasts sharply with the frantic post above about shutting down care homes etc.

Thos.

[Alan2273]

I agree with Thos on this, anything that can give older people suffering with varying degrees of memory loss more independance has to be looked at.

[catgate]

so that their families know they are safe and secure

In my book it says that families who want to know they are safe and secure will be looking after them.

an 80 or 90-year-old who may have Alzheimer's should not have to go out into the community and go shopping, unaccompanied.

I'd be interested to hear people's views on this.

"Those views that are in favour we will agree with, whilst those that are not we will ignore".

It's all a bit like giving a child half a crown and saying "There you are, enjoy your freedom, run along and play amongst the traffic for the afternoon".

[Irene]

I agree with Thos on this, anything that can give older people suffering with varying degrees of memory loss more independance has to be looked at.

Memory loss is my worst nightmare!

My Mum suffered from dementure. Towards the end of her life, she didn't even know me, her baby of four children. She certainly would not have been a contender to be allowed out into the community to go shopping. My next, in line of age, sister & I spent many hours tending to her needs, whilst she was in the Nursing Home which was subsidised by the NHS. During this period, my elder sister died of cancer, but my Mum had no knowledge of this whatsoever (thank goodness), due to her dementure.

The burden on relatives of people with memory loss, including dementure is immense, so any support is invaluable.

[catgate]

She certainly would not have been a contender to be allowed out into the community to go shopping.

That is my point, Irene. Care is what they need, not ear tags, like cattle.

My mother, although not suffering from Alzheimers, had a form of dementia, caused by a serious cerebral heamorrage in her late 50s. There was no way she could have wandered about in the community, with or without a tag. She needed to be cared for. So we added a granny flat for her and my father, and they finished their days with us.

It is not possible for some people to do this, but that does not mean to say that society should just let them wander about, unsupervised and uncared for.

[AlanHo]

I have mixed feelings about this.

My neighbour has a 79 year old aunt-in-law in a local dementia care home - whose only living relative is her 86 year old husband, who himself is in care elsewhere.

A few months ago she somehow went walkabout in the night and the care home didn't realise she was missing until the following morning. The police found her 9 miles away wandering about in her nightclothes and bare feet almost 3 hours after she was reported missing. Had she have been tagged - I guess she would have been found sooner - or perhaps not have been able to leave the care home without giving off an alarm.

Not only that - I am currently a regular visitor to a dementia care home to see an old friend whose only relatives live abroad. I always feel so sad when I see all the people in there and truly count my blessings (while I can still count).

Catgate - I admire what you did for your parents - but as you said - not everyone has relatives who can care for them.

[andsome]

Sounds like a typical B'liar government plan. Shut down the care homes, keep people locked away indoors and save some more money to waste.

That sounds like a typical Not-so-Andsome response.

What Malcom Wicks said was " We've got an ageing population, with many people frail and suffering from dementia,......... how can we get the balance right so that they have the freedom to live their lives, to go out into the community and go shopping, but also that some might benefit from being monitored so that their families know they are safe and secure? These are new and early ideas - I'd be interested to hear people's views on this."

This measured approach contrasts sharply with the frantic post above about shutting down care homes etc.

Thos.

My view is that people should have as much Independence as they can manage and need. I play bowls with a 94 year old who still looks after himself, and has the abilities of someone probably thirty years younger. Some people however are incapable of looking after them selves at any age, and are not even safe to be allowed out alone whether or not they are accompanied, or tagged. Sure, all types of care for any age group is expensive, but what have we worked for all our lives, if not to have care and security when we need it? How many billions has it cost to poke our noses into Iraq and Afghanistan? How many millions is it costing to keep 10,000 foreign criminals in our jails? How many millions is it costing to increase NHS consultants pay by 20-25% and at the same time LOWER their work load. How many billions is it going to cost to arm a small island with new nuclear weapons? How many billions do we spend on illegal immigrants? There is an alarming amount of waste in this country. Charity begins at home, let's look after all those in our society who need it. Labour controlled Staffordshire is planning to close EVERY single care home, and day care centre, never mind that the people of Staffordshire are up in arms about it. HERE., ALSO HERE.

Come on Thos, face the fact that almost every piece of legislation brought in by this government has been flawed in one way or another. Why have they had so many revolts by their own M.P's?

[Thos]

Come on Thos, face the fact that almost every piece of legislation brought in by this government has been flawed in one way or another. Why have they had so many revolts by their own M.P's?

It appears that in spite of the reaction originally, the purpose of Malcom Wick's idea, that is to start a debate on the pros and cons is being met. It is not legislation by a long, long way.

I am disappointed by catgate's response. I don't always agree with his views, but I respect them because running through them has always been the fundamental principle that the "people" should always be consulted. That is what is being done here.

About the proposal itself. I was thinking that most of us would have some experience of dementia sufferers, but I thought that might be presumptious to say so. However, it appears from the posts that it may be true. I certainly have. My mother, though she lived until 96 suffered from dementia for the last 8 or 10 years or so. In the early stages she was mildly confused and tended to wander. However she broke her hip and that restricted her movements. She then needed nursing treatment as well and was cared for in a nursing home. So in the early stages it would have been helpful to know just where she was.

So, andsome, I am interested in the debate and to hear people's considered views on the idea without that ridiculous dismissal on party political lines.

Thos.

[andsome]

Off subject of course, but it is a fact that I don't ever remember you agreeing that anything done by this government could possibly be wrong. I know it isn't legislation yet, but if B'liar wants it to be so, then it WILL be. Consultation with this government is a smoke screen.

[AlanHo]

.............................. I am interested in the debate and to hear people's considered views on the idea without that ridiculous dismissal on party political lines.

Thos.

I have added my four pennorth. It is clearly a sensitive issue that could affect many of us - either directly or indirectly. It deserves a proper debate without cynical or political overtones.

[Thos]

Off subject of course, but it is a fact that I don't ever remember you agreeing that anything done by this government could possibly be wrong. I know it isn't legislation yet, but if B'liar wants it to be so, then it WILL be. Consultation with this government is a smoke screen.

This is the reason that it is useless atempting to respond to those posts.

Thos.

[Irene]

I am completely non-political, but I do think when reading through the various 'debates' on this forum, there is just too much 'black or white'.

The grass always looks greener on the other side, until the other side becomes this side. Then the whole 'rigmarole' starts again!!

[catgate]

It deserves a proper debate without cynical or political overtones.

You are right, of course. The trouble is we are governed by politicians.

The wild and extravagant claims and promises being made in Scotland at present is a wonderful example of the lengths they will go to to gain/keep power.

They know what is "best for the country" (any country), but somehow they always seem to get it wrong, and it ends in tears......funny really.

[andsome]

The point is that this IS a political topic, and as such will attract political views.

[Thos]

The point is that this IS a political topic, and as such will attract political views.

Really?

Can grown ups not offer opinions on whether electronic tags should be fitted to sufferers of dementia? And listen respectfully to both and all points of view?

Thos.

[andsome]

The point is that this IS a political topic, and as such will attract political views.

Really?

Can grown ups not offer opinions on whether electronic tags should be fitted to sufferers of dementia? And listen respectfully to both and all points of view?

Thos.

As it is a suggestion from a government minister, and a government department would be involved, it surely is a political issue. Any decision on a matter like this MUST involve the politicians.

[Thos]

The point is that this IS a political topic, and as such will attract political views.

Really?

Can grown ups not offer opinions on whether electronic tags should be fitted to sufferers of dementia? And listen respectfully to both and all points of view?

Thos.

As it is a suggestion from a government minister, and a government department would be involved, it surely is a political issue. Any decision on a matter like this MUST involve the politicians.

Isn't this tiresome? It could go on forever.

Can the debate go on about what really matters, the sufferers of dementia and whether they would be helped by electronic tagging rather than a display of a visceral dislike of the Prime Minister and his government?

Thos.

[trackrat]

I have never voted Labour and never will, but thos is right, it was started as a debate on whether people should be tagged, not a political debate.

[nellie2]

I can't be doing with politics and I have no interest in ulterior motives.

However... getting back to the subject of the debate...........

I am lucky and I not had to cope with a loved one suffering from dementia. In that respect, I don't know that much about it. But I do know that there are different levels of dementia.. so if a person is affected by dementia (or something similar) and has 'blank periods' where they may wander off... surely anything that would allow them to be monitored would be a good thing, it would allow them to stay in their own homes (while they can) but would afford them some sort of protection if they don't have close family or friends to look after them.