Love the new theme

[Mike567]

It looks great, put the xmas spirit into everyone :lol:.

[Irene]

It looks great, put the xmas spirit into everyone :lol:.

.... and me!!!

Where is the Up-to-the-top arrow?

[Irene]

No probs....

Found it. :D

[Watchful]

Yes, beautiful; had me flummoxed for a minute when replying but it's very nice

[wickedadmin]

Very nice indeed

[catgate]

I'll bet there are those who will grunble though. :D :D :D

[r4may]

Very seasonal

[Chris]

I'll bet there are those who will grunble though. :D :D :D

They will be banished, any returness will be shot. :D

[andsome]

If I remember right it is the same one as last year, or was last years the red one? Whatever, I like it, anything for a change. :D

[Chris]

If I remember right it is the same one as last year, or was last years the red one? Whatever, I like it, anything for a change. :D

Yes, same as last year - we're getting our monies worth :D

[andsome]

If I remember right it is the same one as last year, or was last years the red one? Whatever, I like it, anything for a change. :D

Yes, same as last year - we're getting our monies worth :D

The red one must have been the year before last then. :D

[Scarthy © ® ™]

YEY FOR CHRISTMAS ! ! ! It looks mint! ;)

[AlanHo]

If I remember correctly - last year we were offered the choice of either Frosty or the standard skin.

Is this not possible this year for those old grumps who do not wish to celibrate the Winterval

[deuces wild]

I'll bet there are those who will grunble though.

If I remember correctly - last year we were offered the choice of either Frosty or the standard skin.

Is this not possible this year for those old grumps who do not wish to celibrate the Winterval

Besides, it in not *Winterval*........it it the *Christmas* season. B)

[AlanHo]

I would refute that Christ - if indeed he ever existed - was born in December. There is a wealth of historical and scientifically based information that the birth - if it ever happened - was most likely in May in the year 7 BC.

Not only is the traditional year for Christ's birth off by a few years, but His supposed December 25 birthday, widely celebrated as Christmas, is also off. Both history and the Bible give many strong indications against December 25 as the day of Christ's birth.

Certainly, if the ancients had known when Christ was born, we would expect to find ample evidence of the celebration in early writings. Yet, in the first 200 years of Christian history, no mention is made of the calendar date of His birth. Not until the year 336 do we find the first mention of a celebration of Christ's birth.

Speculation on the proper date began in the 3rd and 4th centuries, when the idea of fixing Christ's birthday started. Quite a controversy arose among Church leaders. Some were opposed to such a celebration. Origen (185-254) strongly recommended against such an innovation. "In the Scriptures, no one is recorded to have kept a feast or held a great banquet on his birthday. It is only sinners who make great rejoicings over the day in which they were born into this world" (Catholic Encyclopedia, 1908 edition, Vol. 3, p. 724, "Natal Day").

During this time eight specific dates during six different months were proposed by various groups. December 25, although one of the last dates to be proposed, was the one finally accepted by the leadership of the Western church.

A summary of the debate on the dates of Christ's birth appears in The Oxford Dictionary of the Christian Church: "Though speculation as to the time of year of Christ's birth dates from the early 3rd century, Clement of Alexandria suggesting the 20th of May, the celebration of the anniversary does not appear to have been general till the later 4th century. The earliest mention of the observance on Dec. 25th is in the Philocalian Calendar, representing Roman practice of the year 336. This date was probably chosen to oppose the feast of the Natalis Solis Invicti (nativity of the unconquerable sun) by the celebration of the birth of the 'Sun of Righteousness' and its observance in the West, seems to have spread from Rome" (1983 edition, Oxford University Press, New York, 1983, p. 280, "Christmas").

Around 200, when Clement of Alexandria mentioned the speculations about Christ's birthday, he said nothing about a celebration on that day. He casually reported the various ideas extant at that time: "And there are those who have determined not only the year of our Lord's birth, but also the day..., the 25th day of Pachon... Furthermore, others say that He was born on the 24th or 25th of Pharmuthi" ("The Stromata, or Miscellanies," The Ante-Nicene Fathers, Vol. 2, Eerdmans, Grand Rapids, 1986, p. 333).

Later, in 243, the official feast calendar of the time, De Pascha Computus, places the date of Christ's birth as March 28. Other dates suggested were April 2 and November 18. Meanwhile, in the East, January 6 was chosen, a date the Greeks had celebrated as the birth of the god Dionysus and the Egyptians as the birth of the god Osiris. Although pagans commonly celebrated the birthdays of their gods, in the Bible a birthday is never celebrated to the true God (who, of course, had no birth or day of origin).

In Rome December 25 was made popular by Pope Liberius in 354 and became the rule in the West in 435 when the first "Christ mass" was officiated by Pope Sixtus III. This coincided with the date of a celebration by the Romans to their primary god, the Sun, and to Mithras, a popular Persian sun god supposedly born on the same day. The Roman Catholic writer Mario Righetti candidly admits that, "to facilitate the acceptance of the faith by the pagan masses, the Church of Rome found it convenient to institute the 25th of December as the feast of the birth of Christ to divert them from the pagan feast, celebrated on the same day in honor of the 'Invincible Sun' Mithras, the conqueror of darkness" (Manual of Liturgical History, 1955, Vol. 2, p. 67).

Protestant historian Henry Chadwick sums up the controversy: "Moreover, early in the fourth century there begins in the West (where first and by whom is not known) the celebration of December 25th, the birthday of the Sun-god at the winter solstice, as the date for the nativity of Christ. How easy it was for Christianity and solar religion to become entangled at the popular level is strikingly illustrated by a mid-fifth century sermon of Pope Leo the Great, rebuking his over-cautious flock for paying reverence to the Sun on the steps of St. Peter's before turning their back on it to worship inside the westward-facing basilica"

If the date of Christ's birth had been celebrated in early Christianity, there would not have been the immense confusion of the dates and the ensuing controversy. Church historians of that time could have simply quoted the Bible for support or shown the examples of celebrations in the early centuries. But none did.

Simply speaking, the date chosen had nothing to do with biblical precedent and everything to do with ecclesiastical authority.

The Encyclopedia Americana makes this clear: "In the fifth century, the Western Church ordered it (Christ's birth) to be observed forever on the day of the old Roman feast of the birth of Sol (the sun god), as no certain knowledge of the day of Christ's birth existed" (1944 edition, "Christmas").

What about the internal biblical evidence for the timing of Christ's birth? We can at least determine the probable season of His birth, and all scriptural indications argue against a December or other winter date.

When were shepherds in the fields?

Israeli meteorologists tracked December weather patterns for many years and concluded that the climate in Israel has been essentially constant for at least the last 2,000 years. The Interpreter's Dictionary of the Bible states that, "broadly speaking, weather phenomena and climatic conditions as pictured in the Bible correspond with conditions as observed today" (R.B.Y. Scott, Vol. 3, Abingdon Press, Nashville, 1962, p. 625).

The temperature in the area of Bethlehem in December averages around 44 degrees Fahrenheit (7 degrees Celsius) but can drop to well below freezing, especially at night. Describing the weather there, Sara Ruhin, chief of the Israeli weather service, noted in a 1990 press release that the area has three months of frost: December with 29 F. (minus 1.6 C.); January with 30 F. (minus 1.1 C.) and February with 32 F. (0 C.).

Snow is common for two or three days in Jerusalem and nearby Bethlehem in December and January. These were the winter months of increased precipitation in Christ's time, when the roads became practically unusable and people stayed mostly indoors.

This is important evidence to disprove a December date for Christ's birth. Note that, at the time of Christ's birth, the shepherds tended their flocks in the fields at night. "Now there were in the same country shepherds living out in the fields," wrote one Gospel writer, "keeping watch over their flock by night" (Luke 2:8). A common practice of shepherds was keeping their flocks in the field from April to October, but in the cold and rainy winter months they took their flocks back home and sheltered them.

One commentary admits that, "as these shepherds had not yet brought home their flocks, it is a presumptive argument that October had not yet commenced, and that, consequently, our Lord was not born on the 25th of December, when no flocks were out in the fields; nor could He have been born later than September, as the flocks were still in the fields by night. On this very ground the nativity in December should be given up. The feeding of the flocks by night in the fields is a chronological fact, which casts considerable light upon this disputed point" (Adam Clarke's Commentary, Abingdon Press, Nashville, note on Luke 2:8).

Another study source agrees: "These humble pastoral folk are out in the field at night with their flock—a feature of the story which would argue against the birth (of Christ) occurring on Dec. 25 since the weather would not have permitted it" (The Interpreter's One-Volume Commentary, Abingdon Press, Nashville, 1971, note on Luke 2:4-7).

Hence - as a galvanised and copper plated atheist I will continue to treat the holiday as a celebration of winter - totally meaningless as a religious festival.

A measure of how church leaders treat Bethlehem - the supposed birthplace - is the infighting between the various Christian faiths. Literally every square foot of the Church of Nativity is battled over by the 3 sects that share use of the church - Greek Orthodox, Roman Catholic and Armenian orthodox. The holy men of the 3 denominations bicker over who gets to clean which sacred wall and who can walk in which aisle. I visited there several years ago and it was common knowledge that the armed guards in and around the church are not there just to protect tourists, but to keep the priests from attacking each other. Even the priests are not able to agree on the correct date for Christmas. The Greek orthodox celebrate January 6th, The Armenians January 18th and the Roman Catholics celebrate Christmas Mass on December 24th.

There I rest my case m'lud.

Happy Winterval to everyone................ :lol:

[deuces wild]

I would refute that Christ -.. :lol:

Merry Christmas Alan. B)

[ɹəuəllıʍ ʇɐb]

I caught a terrible cold, and looking at all these frosty things makes it just worse!

I want to be able to choose the standard theme, otherwise I demand to be shot!

[Chris]

B)

[ɹəuəllıʍ ʇɐb]

That was quick - Thanks!

[andsome]

I like the frosty theme, and was disappointed this morning when the page opened up to the standard theme, but I soon realised of course that I could click for a choice.

Alan, that was quite a spiel. Did you type it all or copy and paste? :lol:

[Irene]

That was quick - Thanks!

Love your sparkly catsuit , Pat. ;)

[andsome]

That was quick - Thanks!

Love your sparkly catsuit , Pat. ;)

He does look rather cute. :lol:

[artist]

Has everyone got it switched on?

[Irene]

Has everyone got it switched on?

I have! :D

I particularly like the red pointers to unread posts in 'View New Posts'.

[andsome]

Has everyone got it switched on?

It'switched on on my own computer and also on my daughters where I am at present. However, this morning I received an occasional error message, and it has happened twice on this computer. Anyone else experienced this?