This makes any normal person feel SICK

[andsome]

This makes any NORMAL person feel physically sick. How can America claim to stand for the rule of law? How can they claim to believe in justice?

Look Here And here. And here. And here

This is revolting. What ever happened to the ethic that EVERYONE is innocent until proved guilty? What happened to the right of everyone to be tried by their peers.

[Tankus]

Nothing to worry about.... Andsome ... according to our beloved its only an "anomaly "

[-pops-]

Love is a very close relation of hate and pain a very close relative of pleasure.

In the case of pain, suffering by others can elicit much pleasure in observers with certain types of psychological disorder - sadism and masochism come to mind but there is much more to it than that. This is one of the fundamental traits of man and no amount of declaration of rights, treaties and other mealy mouthed palliatives will do anything to alter it.

These acts that are referred to in the articles quoted are carried out in the expectation that, in the already violent and closed society of the perpetrators, they will not be found out.

[Thos]

What a peculiar situation exists.

On the one hand a mighty nation is increasing it's church attendance and seems to genuinely express it's belief in a God and on the other hand it has this belief that torture is right. A popular TV programme is "24" and almost every episode includes scenes of both baddies and goodies torturing others in some way to try to make them give up information.

It has become the norm and civilisation is suffering because of it.

Thos.

[AlanHo]

I see no anomaly in the increased church attendance and acceptance of torture.

For many centuries - the devout masses of many religions have congregated to follow the doctrines of controllers in funny clothes masquerading as religious leaders who have been guilty of the most awful violence in the so called service of a God.

What makes the present day any different.

[Thos]

I see no anomaly in the increased church attendance and acceptance of torture.

For many centuries - the devout masses of many religions have congregated to follow the doctrines of controllers in funny clothes masquerading as religious leaders who have been guilty of the most awful violence in the so called service of a God.

What makes the present day any different.

Absolutely true. But the present day Christian religious advocates preach their abhorrence of torture and it is this difference that I find odd.

Thos.

[Tankus]

Are churches increasing their flock.......?

[rong]

Are churches increasing their flock.......?

Do you mean papering over the cracks.

[andsome]

I see no anomaly in the increased church attendance and acceptance of torture.

For many centuries - the devout masses of many religions have congregated to follow the doctrines of controllers in funny clothes masquerading as religious leaders who have been guilty of the most awful violence in the so called service of a God.

What makes the present day any different.

The inquisition comes to mind.

[Thos]

Are churches increasing their flock.......?

Don't ask me to quote chapter and verse but apparently so in the USA.

Thos.

[r4may]

I would have thought that this type of behaviour would be abhorrent to most normal people regardless of their beliefs ( or non beliefs ) and would not condone it..

[-pops-]

Never underestimate man's inhumanity to man - and the way it can spread like the most rampant plague through large swaths of society. History, even recent history in our supposed civilised society, is stuffed with examples - the Balkans, the Nazis, Pohl Pot in Cambodia, Tiananman Square, USSR under Stalin the list is effectively endless.

The most sickening thing with these new revelations is that they have been carried out by "The Land of the Free"

I will repost a quote I gave before and I make no excuse for doing so. It is on a bronze plaque at the base of a large statue on Ellis Island, New York

Not like the brazen giant of Greek fame,

with conquering limbs astride from land to land;

Here at our sea-washed, sunset gates shall stand

a mighty woman with a torch, whose flame

is the imprisoned lightning, and her name

Mother of Exiles. From her beacon-hand

Glows world-wide welcome; her mild eyes command

The air-bridged harbor that twin cities frame,

"Keep, ancient lands, your storied pomp!" cries she

with silent lips. "Give me your tired, your poor,

Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,

The wretched refuse of your teeming shore,

Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me,

I lift my lamp beside the golden door!"

Rather sick, I think.

[andsome]

Land of the free for some, but not for others.

[catgate]

This topic is so closely allied to the current political thread on another page.

The message from the leader is "If you do as I say you will be rewarded by xxxxxx "

(xxxxxx can be a lifetime of free spectacles and hernia operations, a great big pension, the keys to heaven, an endless supply of virgins, etc)

The message from the leader is "If you do not do as I say you will zzzzzzz."

(zzzzzzz can be a lifetime of oppression by the members opposite, damnation for eternity, higher taxes, continued suffering from piles.)

The leader can be political or religious, it makes no difference. They both have only one objective and that is to have total power and be able to subject all people to their will.

It may be that as young people they were foolish enough (due to inexperience and lack of a "real" education system) to have believed some or even all of the hogwash, with which every one is constantly bombarded, and have taken part in activities which led them to become "junior local district leaders". From there they would "progress" into higher circles, still believing in the righteous sanctity of the cause, and gaining power, "respect" and encouragement from their "leader" as they went. Eventually they become so full of their own importance, and so hypnotised by the "Truth" that they spin, that they become what we see today strutting about on the "world stages".

When they get to this stage they can believe that black is white, and pigs can fly, and that what everyone else thinks or says is of no consequence. It is under these circumstances that leaders (both political and religious) turn a blind eye or even condone abhorent behaviour, such as torture, gas chamber, genocide etc.

Both religion and politics are like sewage....the scum always rises to the top.

The definition of terrorism is the "the seeking to achieve ones objectives through fear". The present leaders, be they political or religious, are doing just that. AND WE ARE LETTING THEM.

[andsome]

Very true

[Tankus]

I would have thought that this type of behaviour would be abhorrent to most normal people regardless of their beliefs ( or non beliefs ) and would not condone it..

I never had a very high opinion of US politicos..any more than ours ...although I rather liked Ronnie .... and Carter for that matter ...but never ...in my wildest imaginings would have expected to see the USA behave like Russia did at its very worst ... and our country stands a party to it .........

We can no longer claim to be the "good guys" ...... the long term terrorist strategy is working better than our response .... but we seem to be following in the footsteps of the US , whose response is even worse

It is on a bronze plaque at the base of a large statue on Ellis Island, New York

Statue given by the French ...vive liberty ......in celebration

Now look at the contempt for their friend ...whose yet government was right ...?

our fence is getting very hard to remain balanced on

[Thos]

The leader can be political or religious, it makes no difference. They both have only one objective and that is to have total power and be able to subject all people to their will.

It may be that as young people they were foolish enough (due to inexperience and lack of a "real" education system) to have believed some or even all of the hogwash, with which every one is constantly bombarded, and have taken part in activities which led them to become "junior local district leaders". From there they would "progress" into higher circles, still believing in the righteous sanctity of the cause, and gaining power, "respect" and encouragement from their "leader" as they went. Eventually they become so full of their own importance, and so hypnotised by the "Truth" that they spin, that they become what we see today strutting about on the "world stages".

When they get to this stage they can believe that black is white, and pigs can fly, and that what everyone else thinks or says is of no consequence. It is under these circumstances that leaders (both political and religious) turn a blind eye or even condone abhorent behaviour, such as torture, gas chamber, genocide etc.

Both religion and politics are like sewage....the scum always rises to the top.

I am sorry, catgate, but this is absolute nonsense. It presumes that the normal people of the nations are non-thinking idiots and they are not.

The political system is not perfect but it has not descended into the chaos which is in your mind.

Thos.

[Tankus]

Thos

The political system is not perfect but it has not descended into the chaos which is in your mind

but don't you think our political system is failing ...? Thos ...less and less people vote ... politicians hang onto their jobs with no censure , over issues that would have been political "fall on your sword for the good of the country" time only two decades ago .... and yet still they get re elected by those who can be bothered ....

Its not what it was ......

................................................................................

..................................................................

Posted this in the pitstop twice ....didnt get much of a result the first time .....

Like the Russian's eventually got rid of their Lubyanka's , it took political change from within ....

Amazing the parallels between the US now ..and Russia at its peak during the cold war

political prisoners held beyond the law ... no charge or trial ..torture ..deaths..?

Military used aggressively

Walking out of international agreements

Veto used to prevent UN resolutions

Dollar /rouble used to control/influence satellite counties that are tied to it economically

State spying on its own citizens

The poor get poorer , while the rich ......

More and more funding into the military , while the economies major players start looking like basket cases

Massive deficit and increasing

Demanding trade in other markets , while making free trade "difficult " in its own

farcical elections

A loon in charge

What then ..(when the pennydrops that there is nothing left in the bank ) ....revolution ...? .the states split off , become independent ..?

forgot one ... the building of an iron curtain ..(this time along the mexican boarder )

One or two references to the Roman empire .........................

[catgate]

I am sorry, catgate, but this is absolute nonsense. It presumes that the normal people of the nations are non-thinking idiots and they are not.

The political system is not perfect but it has not descended into the chaos which is in your mind.

Thos.

Let me try to explain the basis of my view.

What you and I see as bad behaviour and rudeness is seen by the modern youngster as Normal, because that is what they have grown up with. Our sense of normality is rapidly aquired from birth until adolesence. After that it is modified only by big "shocks". Gradual change is Normal and unnoticed because that is what happens Normally. In the early years we accept that "those in charge know best" simply because those in charge tell us that is how it is, and some of them teach us how to 'read and right and doo sums'. We are told "the meek will inherit the earth", "God/the state will look after you". "do not worry about bird flu, the government has put in place all the necessary safeguards", "We are taking all this money from you because we know how to spend it ON YOU more wisely than you do." etc.

As a result the population are hypnotised into accepting normality as the being the best of what there is, because "people who are much cleverer than I are in charge, and they must know what is right" because they are older and more experienced that I am. When we get to that age where policemen start to look like young lads, most have become immune or inured to the true situation. Thus what I am saying is that people do think, to some extent, but it is a defective mentation conditioned by years of political and religious hypnotic doublespeak and humbug.

Generally, the scum at the top have realised that all this talk of justice and religion is just hogwash, long before they climbed to the top, because, had they not realised this, how could they initiate the slaughter of hundreds of thousands of innocent people just to gain their own ends? How could they impoverish those they are purporting to be caring for, and who are paying not only for the necessities needed for all this slaughter but who are actually paying the lunatics at the top to carry out this vandalism. This of course applies just as much to the "enemy" leaders be they political, religious or an amalgam.

You are perfectly correct in your assertion that the political system is not perfect and I see no way of it being changed as long as we have politicians and clerics.

Oh! don't I go on!

[deuces wild]

The persons responsible have been prosecuted. These are not new pictures but previously unpublished pictures from the original event.

Yep, the guards were wrong. Action was taken so it would not happen again.

How many times do you folks have to regurgitate this tragedy?

Tankus: You obviously have no idea what you are talking about when referencing an Iron Curtain on our Mexican border. We allow immigration into the Country, but legal immigration.

Do you have any clue how much illegal immigration costs the US?

I hope they put up a 50 foot high wall with razor sharp barbed wire along the top. Our borders are like sieves and uncontrolled.........to easy for illegals and terrorists to sneak in unnoticed.

[Thos]

Thos

The political system is not perfect but it has not descended into the chaos which is in your mind

but don't you think our political system is failing ...? Thos ...less and less people vote ... politicians hang onto their jobs with no censure , over issues that would have been political "fall on your sword for the good of the country" time only two decades ago .... and yet still they get re elected by those who can be bothered ....

Its not what it was ......

The fact that less and less people vote is a matter which should concern us all. Many youngsters take no interest partly because of this often repeated untruth that ALL politicians are liars and blackguards and so they don't vote. Indeed they wouldn't know who to vote for if they did feel so inclined, unless a "celebrity" told them.

And you are right. It is not what it was. But don't forget what it was not all that long ago. Landowners and their ilk were elected to what was, in effect a gentleman's club, because the populace touched their metaphorical forelocks to them.

So yes, Tankus, our political system is failing us, but it isn't chaotic. There are still people who care.

I think the second part of your post related to the situation in the States and I don't really feel competant to comment, except to say that many of the points relate to almost every country in the world and they are comments on society not necessarily on politicians.

Thos.

[rong]

I don't vote but spoil my paper, I would vote if someone stood who would fight for my money, not pay twice for every thing, not cut taxes but put up the starting rate, (I know this is cutting tax, but this way the ones that need it most get the most out of it) and if they make a mistake say so. I this person was around he/she would get my vote no matter what party, as long as they were prepared to vote against the party to keep the party in line. So it looks like I will remain one of the many that think it is corrupt and that most of them are as well.

[Thos]

Oh! don't I go on!

And I am glad you do.

In your analysis, I believe you have outlined the problem of the behaviour of many of our youths, rudeness and so on; indeed the chap you often refer to as your cherub has tried to act on this many times.

Where we disagree is in the belief that it is all initiated by what you call the "scum at the top". You think they are impoverishing the people. How so? Do you really think that the nation is being impoverished? I don't think any impartial observer could say that economically this is so. (Although there are good arguments that it is so in a cultural sense....but I don't think that was part of your thesis)

As far as "initiating the slaughter, etc.", I assume you are talking modern times about the invasion of Iraq rather than other wars. Well, there were good reasons for that action but no government would have undertaken it light-heartedly to "gain their own ends" by which I assume you mean selfish ends rather than national ones.

Although an atheist, as I have said on other occasions, I regard the clerics as foolish rather than evil. Atrocities have been and are being perpetrated in the name of religion and I wish the mainstream leaders would condemn and disassociate their religions from the extremists. But most of all, I wish they would see sense, stop the mumbo jumbo, take off their frocks and do some useful activity.

Thos.

[djohn]

I always vote and have done since I was 21 years of age both in general and local elections. My vote does not always go to the same party and some times I will vote for one party in the general election and another party in the local election.

Remembering this is a public forum and open to all to read I will go as far as saying that there may be some politicians that are less than honourable and truthful, but most do go into political life with good intentions. It must be very difficult when as an MP you have the choice of voting on an issue where your local electorate, the people who voted you into the job in the first instance want you to go one direction, your local party want another direction and your chief Whip is insisting you vote the way he says simply because going against the party line may bring down the government at the next election. :blink:

[-pops-]

This thread has gone way, way off course.

Isn't it time to close and, if a continuation of the development is seen appropriate, start a new one?