How are they going to do this without generating any heat??

[catgate]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/7143197.stm

[doug]

Well they can't of course, nor can they avoid the emission of unfriendly materials into the earths atmosphere on the way. Mind It will make Pub Darts seem a bit more tame!

[trackrat]

They should go ahead and when they succeed it will be a stepping stone to sending all politicians into orbit permanently.

[andsome]

So, we can afford this, but cannot afford a decent pay rise for the police.

[AlanHo]

So, we can afford this, but cannot afford a decent pay rise for the police.

I believe the police are well paid compared with some services. Especially the senior ranks who get far more than they deserve in relation to the hours they actually do any work and their track record. If police pay was linked to performance - they are due a massive pay cut. The only success story the police can claim is the massive increase in motoring fines.

If you had quoted care workers or nurses - that would be quite a different matter.

[catgate]

This whole business of space "exploration" has me very puzzled.

There is absolutely no logic in the reasons given for it. In practical terms it is a pointless exercise and an enormous waste in the world resources. It has produced some wonderful spin-offs such as iPod technology, ink that will run up hill, heavy anti gravity boots, weightless indigestion tablets and countless imbecilic films and TV series. The only solid benefits seem to have been the creation of thousands of well paid jobs and huge profits for the favoured companies, and of course the fuel for the pitiful and infantile pride of the politicians who are condoning and encouraging the wasting of those resources.

Yesterday I thought I would look up "The Law of Diminishing Returns" (in the "Boy's Book of Economics").

I could not find it. I looked right through from front to back. Then I final found it, hiding inside the back cover. It was doubled in two with laughter and was slapping it's knee, shouting "Space travel, ha,ha,ha, Space Travel, Oh my god, what a set of pi**ocks, ha,ha,ha. Space travel, Intergalactic cr*p" etc.

I just closed the back cover and came away.

[Watchful]

A very wise thing to do catgate.

[andsome]

So, we can afford this, but cannot afford a decent pay rise for the police.

I believe the police are well paid compared with some services. Especially the senior ranks who get far more than they deserve in relation to the hours they actually do any work and their track record. If police pay was linked to performance - they are due a massive pay cut. The only success story the police can claim is the massive increase in motoring fines.

If you had quoted care workers or nurses - that would be quite a different matter.

Care workers and nurses, yes of course. Maybe the senior ranks of the police are overpaid, it is the same in most of the services. However, I think that ordinary police do at times what is a very dangerous job, and the reason that they appear to waste a lot of time on more mundane tasks is down to trying to achieve government targets. I see no reason to object to speeding and dangerous driving fines, as the next person killed could well be someone near and dear to you.

[catgate]

So, we can afford this, but cannot afford a decent pay rise for the police.

I believe the police are well paid compared with some services. Especially the senior ranks who get far more than they deserve in relation to the hours they actually do any work and their track record. If police pay was linked to performance - they are due a massive pay cut. The only success story the police can claim is the massive increase in motoring fines.

If you had quoted care workers or nurses - that would be quite a different matter.

Care workers and nurses, yes of course. Maybe the senior ranks of the police are overpaid, it is the same in most of the services. However, I think that ordinary police do at times what is a very dangerous job, and the reason that they appear to waste a lot of time on more mundane tasks is down to trying to achieve government targets. I see no reason to object to speeding and dangerous driving fines, as the next person killed could well be someone near and dear to you.

And of course the cost of policemen's wages is fundamental to the amount of heat generated by sending rockets to Mars, even if the one dear and near to you, or even 250 light years away, does not get killed.

[Irene]

So, we can afford this, but cannot afford a decent pay rise for the police.

I believe the police are well paid compared with some services. Especially the senior ranks who get far more than they deserve in relation to the hours they actually do any work and their track record. If police pay was linked to performance - they are due a massive pay cut. The only success story the police can claim is the massive increase in motoring fines. If you had quoted care workers or nurses - that would be quite a different matter.

Care workers and nurses, yes of course. Maybe the senior ranks of the police are overpaid, it is the same in most of the services. However, I think that ordinary police do at times what is a very dangerous job, and the reason that they appear to waste a lot of time on more mundane tasks is down to trying to achieve government targets. I see no reason to object to speeding and dangerous driving fines, as the next person killed could well be someone near and dear to you.

I agree with you andsome, completely and absolutely!

In fact, I would say that they face dangerous situations more than, "at times".

[catgate]

I see no reason to object to speeding and dangerous driving fines, as the next person killed could well be someone near and dear to you.

You do come out with some nonsense at times, and in some incongruous places.

Punishment for dangerous driving is admirable but it is not carried out. Basically because it returns nothing to the coffers. The punishment should be a ban for life, and the transfer of all the victims financial responsibilities to the driver in the case of a death.

As far as speeding is concerned it has become a means of revenue generation and is wildly supported by those who can not see for themselves the folly of it all.

There are more people killed in central London than in the rest of the country every day. The speed limit in London varies 30mph/ 20mph/ 10mph. A man recently reported driving right across London on a normal day and never got above 11mph anywhere. This would indicate that the pedestrian population are not without some responsibility in this matter. Oddly enough there are never any prosecutions for dangerous walking or running without due care. It is always the fault of the driver.

Our East Riding Council has a machine that franks all their mail with the message SPEED KILLS. Nonsense. If this were true all the aircraft pilots and passengers would be dead just after take off. Speed is not dangerous. It is its use in inappropriate circumstances that is dangerous.

We have had a sudden, apparently county, wide extending of speed restricted areas (yes I know before you say it ALL AREAS ARE RESTRICTED). All the villages round here have suddenly acquired a 40mph area extending well beyond the existing 30mph limits,some of which have have been extended considerably. There are two specific sections that we use frequently where these areas extend over half a mile beyond the 30mph village limit and in that half mile there is in one case one cottage, and in the other case two cottages, spaced well apart. This is ludicrous, most roads have farms nearer together than that. Formerly the distance between the lamp posts was a guide to the status of the road, in relation to 30mph. If it had lamp posts less than 100yds apart it was classed as a "built up area" and would be 30mph. These days there are hundreds of miles of 30mph roads without lamp posts, because the there are no pedestrians and consequently no footpaths. But.....there are cars and where there are cars there is the opportunity for fiscal gain.

This speeding nonsense was started not for the benefit of pedestrians but for the benefit of the local squirachy on their hunters. The bit for pedestrians was include in the dangerous driving offence. It can sometimes be perfectly safe to drive at 60mph in a 30mph zone if there is no other road user about, similarly it can be dangerous to drive at 10mph in a 60mph zone if there are certain types of road users about. Under these circumstances it is up to the driver to drive with due cars and attention, just as it is at all times.

It is impossible for some official, in an office somewhere, to dictate the all purpose safe speed for any stretch of road (other than 0 mph), and, if a proper deterrent punishment were to be used, silly speed limits for dummies would not be needed.

The proper use of the due care and attention law and the dangerous driving law would rapidly make driving much safer for everyone.. Neither of these is used in connection with speed as much as it should be. Why?

Because it is easier to put up some silly blanket restriction and then generate revenue through it.

As far as " the next person killed could well be someone near and dear to you" is concerned this is "do gooder justificational, sentimental, bovine excrement". It could be me, or you, or it could be someone I hate. Everyone, every day is in danger of something fatal .....electrocution, drowning, falling off a chair, being fallen on by a tail fin falling off an aircraft. But it always happens to someone else not me,doesn't it?

No, I am not a speed merchant. I have been driving for getting on for sixty years and have never had a ticket. I have never been a "40mph middler of the roader" either, nor one who was happy to sit behind a long queue of traffic, but I have always tried to drive with care and attention.

[Irene]

Hope you feel better for getting that off your chest, catgate.

Very cynical attitude. Quite sad really.

I don't usually get involved in these debates, because I feel that they are generally a lot of 'hot air', spouted by opinionated people.

However, having made an exception on this occasion, I will now bow out gracefully.

[rong]

This is one of the times when the whole of categates statement is true and well put, it is not speed that kills but inconsiderate driving, the true figures show this.

[catgate]

There is nothing cynical about it Irene. It is all very heartfelt, and to my mind (which is always out of step with the normal view) very valid. Only in the last few days has my view on the fiscal gathering nature of speed traps etc. been confirmed by a very high ranking policeman. A Chief Constable no less.

[Irene]

One of the reasons why I don't get involved in these debates, is that I am not sufficiently eloquent.

That does not mean that I do not have any opinions.

My main reason for adding to this thread, was the criticism of the role of our police officers.

My feelings too, catgate, are heartfelt.

I suppose it all hinges on your life experiences.

Mine are that I sincerely know and believe, that our police officers face enormous risks every single day.

At our age, they are our sons and daughters, whose job it is to try to protect us from the threats and dangers of modern-day life, sad scenario as that is.

I am a very good driver. I try to observe the speed limits.

However, I frequently get frightening experiences from other drivers, mainly on the motorway.

Everyone, every day is in danger of something fatal .....electrocution, drowning, falling off a chair, being fallen on by a tail fin falling off an aircraft.

Unfortunately, these events are not protected by our police force.

[andsome]

Catgate, some of your points are valid, and some are probably more nonsensical than you found my comments to be. It would be impossible to have speed limits that are anything other than blanket in built up areas. A driver may think that it is safe to do 60 in a 30 area because he can see no other road users, until a child runs out and it is too late. I don't think that anyone can approve of low limits on roads that have no houses, and that is one of your valid points.

Our East Riding Council has a machine that franks all their mail with the message SPEED KILLS. Nonsense. If this were true all the aircraft pilots and passengers would be dead just after take off.

The above is one of your silly statements, no one with any sense would take things that literally, but speed can kill in the wrong place and the wrong time, and all to frequently does. Many things need tightening up on in addition to excessive speed . Namely tail gating. This is an absolutely ridiculous thing to do, and is the cause of all the major multiple pile ups. It should be impossible to have multiple pile ups in bad weather conditions because everyone should be a sensible distance from the vehicle in front. Until people get sound common sense, there have to be restrictions, especially in such a small overcrowded island as this.

We have now strayed far from the original topic.

[Tankus]

I quite like how the Spanish do it in their out in the sticks single road through towns .....(excellent roads too by the way ) come into town too fast and every single traffic light will go against you ...come in slow and they stay green (unless there is a crossing ) simple but effective ..

motoring in the UK has become an easy cash cow for various agencies ,the digital ones in London earn millions

[catgate]

My main reason for adding to this thread, was the criticism of the role of our police officers.

Our police officers did not join the service to become revenue gatherers, did they? The role they play in this respect is something that has been generated by a gang of ne'er do well poiticians who have seen the chance to extract more money from the wicked, sinful motorist in the name of "safety", whilst at the same time reinforcing the large element of fear that seems to be necessary to have a pliable and compliant population.

As far as the police officers are concerned I would not criticise the officers themselves (with the exception of some who should not be there in the first place) but I would criticise this particular role. Ever since new labour came in the emphasis has changed and "the police" have become less of a body for the good of the public and more of a body for the support of the government.

[catgate]

We have now strayed far from the original topic.

Who strayed away from the original topic in the first place???

It would be impossible to have speed limits that are anything other than blanket in built up areas. A driver may think that it is safe to do 60 in a 30 area because he can see no other road users, until a child runs out and it is too late.

I was not aware that I was recommending any blanket speed limits. Blanket speed limits are foolish.They not only serve to generate revenue but also can give a feeling of false security to all road users. If I was doing 25 mph in a built up area, I could not plead that since I was doing under 30mph I was within the law, and could therefore not be found guilty of knocking down my victim. I would be told that It was up to me to drive safely and reduce my speed according to need. If I am allowed/expected to make judgements of road conditions , and reduce speed accordingly then surely that same brain must be allowed to make increased speed adjustments in line with conditions. One can only view the 30mph figure as a guide, because quite plainly is does little to stop accident. There is only one truly safe speed, and that is 0 mph.

Now the favourite emotive question of the child running out.

Who has allowed this child to run out? Why has someone allowed this child to run out? Why has this child not been educated to a safe level of streetwiseness? What has happened to our society when children are given lesson in sex and procreation in schools, but are not educated in the perils of rushing out into the road? Education (in the home and in school) is pointless unless survival skills are taught prior to media studies.

Still, it does not matter, the evil motorist can always be blamed. More often than not there are few witnesses and the frenzy of public opinion, based on SPEED KILLS, will ensure the child will not be blamed.

Of course the 'what if' scenario transposes very well out into the country. What if a cow runs out? What if a sheep runs out? What if a horse jumps over a wall? Under this 'what if' logic we could well see 30mph country wide.

Before being allowed to drive a motorised vehicle on the road it is necessary to pass an examination to prove ones capability of using the road in a proper manner. There are no examinations to see if a pedestrian or cyclist or horse rider etc has the necessary capability. More often than not there is no training either.

Before moving off this pedestrian thing, it has always seemed strange to me that moving vehicles, travelling at any speed, should be allowed to pass within inches of pedestrians without so much as a wire mesh between them. The road user is expected to be able to watch the movements on the road ahead, the road behind and the crowd on the pavement. Considering the melee on the pavements in most urban areas I think it is a miracle that accidents are so low.

Apart from cost, and a certain inconvenience to the pedestrian, what is to prevent suitable barriers being erected along pavement edges in urban areas to separate pedestrians and traffic? It is a tried and tested and much used technique outside schools so it must work. Yes I know it will be expensive and inconvenient to pedestrians but apart from that what else...?

Our East Riding Council has a machine that franks all their mail with the message SPEED KILLS. Nonsense. If this were true all the aircraft pilots and passengers would be dead just after take off.

The above is one of your silly statements,...

This is one of the very silly and sinister methods being used to brain wash the populace into accepting the hog wash that is spewed out by "those who know best". It is on a par to the sign that you see, almost as soon as you have gained access to a motorway. that tells you that tiredness kills and you should therefore pull over onto the hard shoulder and take a nap.

As for the rest of the tailgating (where have you picked up this dreadful American expression),multiple pile ups etc .

If those found to be driving "dangerously" or "without due care and attention" were punished as they should be, instead of having marks put on a piece of paper, paying money into the coffers and then being allowed to go again, we should get rid of bad driving very quickly. (and make more room on the road for me!!!)

[rong]

Just one point the hard shoulder is not for sleeping on, it is for if you break down.

[catgate]

Just one point the hard shoulder is not for sleeping on, it is for if you break down.

Oh! the sign that tells you to pull over and have a nap does not say that...do you think other people know this???

[rong]

You where obviously going to fast to read the rest of the sign.

[catgate]

You where obviously going to fast to read the rest of the sign.

Damn! You've sussed me :(

[CurlyWhirly]

So, we can afford this, but cannot afford a decent pay rise for the police.

Apparently MP's think that they deserve a pay rise despite the worry over inflation.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml...24/npols324.xml

It seems that they aren't worried about inflation as long as they get something out of it

If Gordon Brown doesn't stop this proposed pay rise going through then he will take the flak yet again!

[catgate]

They asked to be considered at a similar rate to the chief executives of smaller councils.

I wonder if they (the MPs) ever think straight.

The Chief Executive of any council is a civil servant. An employee of the council (even if Council Chief Executives have hypnotised themselves into thinking themselves little tin gods, rather than the old Town Clerks) and the true MP comparison is with the councillors.