Do you believe in God?

[andsome]

I started a thread concerning the wisdom of having a president who claims that his God talks to him, and advises him whether or not to invade other countries. This got way off topic, and I was asked by DW, whether or not I believed in God. I have done my best to answere that extremely complex question below. I feel that i have given my best possible answer, and will leave it to others now.

Since DW has asked me whether or not I believe in God, I will do my best to answer. I believe however that it is not possible to give a straight yes or no.

For one thing, I do not believe that a God exists who would talk on a personal basis to a president, and advise him as to whether or not he should start a war.

I do not believe in a God with a long white beard, who sits in a place called heaven, and is surrounded by flying angels.

I do not believe in a God who would on one hand tell Catholics to go out and murder Protestants in the name of religion, or on the other hand tell Protestants to go out and murder Catholics.

I do not believe in a God who would tell Serbians to murder Muslims.

I do not believe in a God who would send Crusaders out to murder and torture Muslims many years ago. I do not believe in a God who would tell Muslims to rampage through Southern Europe many years ago, raping, torturing and pillaging.

I do not believe in a God who would have advised his followers to torture and burn old ladies at the stake, because they practiced herbal medicine and may or may not have owned a cat.

I do not believe in a God who would have sent the inquisition to maim, torture and execute other people who did not practice religion in the same way as they did. I do not believe that the sun or the moon can be Gods.

I do not believe that statues of stone, wood or metal can be Gods, or indeed earth, wind, rain, fire or any other kind of natural phenomena, can be God.

I do not believe in a God, who would talk with a person called Pope, who is forbidden to have a relationship with a woman, and tell him to advise people on married and family life. I cannot believe that God would also have told this person called Pope, that he must advise people in countries that are very poor, and are badly infected with Aids and other diseases, that they must risk passing on this terrible scourge to others, rather than practice safe sex. Also I find it quite ridiculous that people can believe that this person called pope is empowered to decree that people of the world must either abstain from expressing their attraction to and love for their partners, or carry on having child upon child, until there will eventually be so many people on earth that millions more will starve to death, and the rest of us will be knee deep in our own pollution.

I do not believe that God made man in his own image, by creating one person, and a companion from that person made from a spare rib.

I believe that if there is a God at all, it is within each person. There are obviously evil forces everywhere, and also in a great many people. Likewise there are good forces, everywhere and in a great many people. I believe that people make their own God within themselves, and that this has nothing to do with places of worship, clerics of whatever religion, missionaries, or any other so called religious leaders. As to whether or not this goodness or evil manifests itself into an actual God or Devil, I do not pretend to be so clever as to be able to give a knowledgeable answer. I like to visit places of worship belonging to all religions, purely out of interest for ancient buildings, but purely on an academic basis. I find it obscene however, that people actually believe in a God who although he talks to their religious leaders, (or presidents), does not instruct them that it is manifestly wrong to adorn these places of worship with millions of pounds worth of valuable items, whilst still demanding money to finance even more luxury, from people who exist in poverty.

It is difficult to refrain from making an even longer spiel, as there is so much to this topic, but DW insisted. Please feel free to post your own views, but I have made mine known and will NOT enlarge on them further.

Over to DW and the rest of you.

[r4may]

I agree in part of what andsome says:-

I cannot see how there can be a controling diety called GOD or what ever, that allows Murder, Wars, Cruelty, Torture and Famine with all the other hardships endured by any living creature, including Humans.

The Law of the Jungle and survival of the fittest prevails in all life on this planet and at all levels of intellegence so I find it very difficult to believe in a GOD much as I would like to.

On the face of things we are but another animal fighting for survival for some reason, why I do not know.

Edit some spelling

[Guest be@vis]

Well said andsome. Perhaps DW will now let the matter rest.

[Tony]

I doubt it

[Thos]

For my part, I do not believe in any sort of God.

There is nothing controlling, guiding or even looking down on our lives. We exist as beings who will cease to exist when our hearts stop beating and blood stops circulating.

Nothing can affect that, not astrology, prayers, sacrifices, priests or mullahs.

And when we aregone, we are gone. No after-life, nothing. Like the life of an ant that we may step on, the life is gone. Only memories remain. It is up to us to try to make sure that the memories are happy ones.

Thos.

[-pops-]

Writing as one who has been at the point of departing this world more than once, no God or other entity has manifested itself to me.

Yes, I had the travelling down endless lighted tunnels, bright lights, soft lights, visions of deceased relatives and friends - including my mother - all the things that are related on these occasions. I've even had out of body experiences and seen myself dead on a hospital bed (which, I understand happens when you're extremely close to the end) but at no time has a "God" or any minion made it/himself known, or even hinted at, to me.

I was extremely doubtful before but, because of this, I find myself completely unable to believe.

Edited to remove a part which is irrelevant about a religious Goooooogle ad. All the ads at the bottom are now religious.

[Alan2273]

I agree with Thos.

[Tankus]

no

edit

but my religious upbringing has left its mark on my outlook on life ...and possibly my behaviour ..which ..on balance ..I think is a good thing

[catgate]

Writing as one who has been at the point of departing this world more than once, no God or other entity has manifested itself to me.

Yes, I had the travelling down endless lighted tunnels, bright lights, soft lights, visions of deceased relatives and friends - including my mother - all the things that are related on these occasions. I've even had out of body experiences and seen myself dead on a hospital bed (which, I understand happens when you're extremely close to the end) but at no time has a "God" or any minion made it/himself known, or even hinted at, to me.

The interesting thing to me is that because so many people have experienced this, and similar things (ESP, spiritualism etc) there are those who believe that this proves the existance of a god, whilst all it proves is that these sorts of things are perfectly "normal" occurences.

[Tony]

No I do not!

[AlanHo]

I'm a bit miffed to read that so few people believe in me.

[catgate]

:D

[deuces wild]

Do I? Yes, absolutely.

Based on the responses it looks like there are no churches in the UK. :P

[-pops-]

Based on the responses it looks like there are no churches in the UK. :P

Well, one at least - the Church of England.

[deuces wild]

I should have said England as I am sure there are plenty of churches in Ireland.

[CurlyWhirly]

I'm afraid that I also don't believe in God.

In any case I don't see how any God would give the go ahead to anyone to start a war.

I agree with the following quote by r4may:

I cannot see how there can be a controling diety called GOD or what ever, that allows Murder, Wars, Cruelty, Torture and Famine with all the other hardships endured by any living creature, including Humans

[andsome]

Do I? Yes, absolutely.

Based on the responses it looks like there are no churches in the UK. :P

In the UK, there are plenty of churches, mosques, chapels, synagogues, etc etc. More and more people however are seeing the damage that religion causes, and are turning away. As I said in my other thread concerning the fact that Dubya claims that his God personally advises him in foreign policy, peoples Gods or devils as the case may be are within themselves. There are forces for good and forces for evil, but no one with a long white beard sits on a throne surrounded by flying angels. Can we please keep Iraq or any other wars out of this discussion, but I would welcome more comments on the fear that I have of having the worlds most powerful nation, run by a lunatic who actually claim that HIS GOD advises him personally on foreign policy. It is in my opinion well past the time where religion and the state should be completely divorced from each other. The country's of the world should be run by cabinet, not by powerful individual who claim that a deity helps than control that country's affairs. This is the root of a lot of the trouble in Northern Ireland, and is why that country in my opinion cannot ever be at peace with itself. The Protestants do not want the pope and the church of Rome with it's antiquated views running the country. They do not believe that a God who would compel them to multiply well beyond their means actually talks to Mr pope and tells him that this and many other policies are right in this world.

[AlanHo]

It is difficult to refrain from making an even longer spiel, as there is so much to this topic, but DW insisted. Please feel free to post your own views, but I have made mine known and will NOT enlarge on them further.

Over to DW and the rest of you.

In the UK, there are plenty of churches, mosques, chapels, synagogues, etc etc. More and more people however are seeing the damage that religion causes, and are turning away. As I said in my other thread concerning the fact that Dubya claims that his God personally advises him in foreign policy, peoples Gods or devils as the case may be are within themselves. There are forces for good and forces for evil, but no one with a long white beard sits on a throne surrounded by flying angels. Can we please keep Iraq or any other wars out of this discussion, but I would welcome more comments on the fear that I have of having the worlds most powerful nation, run by a lunatic who actually claim that HIS GOD advises him personally on foreign policy. It is in my opinion well past the time where religion and the state should be completely divorced from each other. The country's of the world should be run by cabinet, not by powerful individual who claim that a deity helps than control that country's affairs. This is the root of a lot of the trouble in Northern Ireland, and is why that country in my opinion cannot ever be at peace with itself. The Protestants do not want the pope and the church of Rome with it's antiquated views running the country. They do not believe that a God who would compel them to multiply well beyond their means actually talks to Mr pope and tells him that this and many other policies are right in this world.

You broke your promise

[CurlyWhirly]

More and more people however are seeing the damage that religion causes, and are turning away.

This is the root of a lot of the trouble in Northern Ireland, and is why that country in my opinion cannot ever be at peace with itself. The Protestants do not want the pope and the church of Rome with it's antiquated views running the country.

Both of the above comments are very true IMHO.

I don't normally enter into religious debates, but I feel so strongly about my opinions on the above 2 points that I felt I had to respond.

[catgate]

I have a little fairy story for you.

[andsome]

It is difficult to refrain from making an even longer spiel, as there is so much to this topic, but DW insisted. Please feel free to post your own views, but I have made mine known and will NOT enlarge on them further.

Over to DW and the rest of you.

In the UK, there are plenty of churches, mosques, chapels, synagogues, etc etc. More and more people however are seeing the damage that religion causes, and are turning away. As I said in my other thread concerning the fact that Dubya claims that his God personally advises him in foreign policy, peoples Gods or devils as the case may be are within themselves. There are forces for good and forces for evil, but no one with a long white beard sits on a throne surrounded by flying angels. Can we please keep Iraq or any other wars out of this discussion, but I would welcome more comments on the fear that I have of having the worlds most powerful nation, run by a lunatic who actually claim that HIS GOD advises him personally on foreign policy. It is in my opinion well past the time where religion and the state should be completely divorced from each other. The country's of the world should be run by cabinet, not by powerful individual who claim that a deity helps than control that country's affairs. This is the root of a lot of the trouble in Northern Ireland, and is why that country in my opinion cannot ever be at peace with itself. The Protestants do not want the pope and the church of Rome with it's antiquated views running the country. They do not believe that a God who would compel them to multiply well beyond their means actually talks to Mr pope and tells him that this and many other policies are right in this world.

You broke your promise

I am obviously a liar. :D :D

I have a little fairy story for you.

I like that. :D :D

[Thos]

I have a little fairy story for you.

Ingenious. :D

(But don't start believing it!)

Thos.

[andsome]

DW, you made this claim in my other thread. There is only one God. Different religions

call Him various names,. So how do you explain that on the one hand, God advises Dubya on foreign policy for the US, and actually instructed him to invade another country, and on the other hand he instructs fanatical fundamentalist Muslims to attack Westerners. How can you reconcile these two opposites of the one God?

PLEASE leave out the rights and wrongs of the war in Iraq and stick to this particular argument

[catgate]

I have a little fairy story for you.

Ingenious. :D

(But don't start believing it!)

Thos.

I can see no other explanation. Each "new" religion has come up with new or modified ways of making the populace "pliable" and "meek" for the "earthly" rulers, whilst "filling its own boots" at the same time.

[r4may]

I have a little fairy story for you.

Ingenious. :D

(But don't start believing it!)

Thos.

Why Not it just as plausible as the other theories (religions etc) :blush: :blush: